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Post by booklady on Oct 16, 2006 21:11:31 GMT -5
So much to say. So little time. I grew up with/on Dylan, but never listened to him until very recently. I've been in a Dylan immersion for the past five or six months. It started with an innocent little mention in the Boston Globe sports section one day last spring that Bob Dylan was going to be playing minor league baseball parks this summer. Then I bought and read Chronicles I, and I was hooked on the incredible mind of this man. In the past five months I've read Chrononcles, a bio called "Down the Highway," and countless lyrics, and bought seven CDs. Then I bought Rolling Stone's pub's The Essential Interviews. 'm trying to decide on my next purchase. I think it's going to be a bootleg of a very early performance. I'm still learning, Gracie, but I'm mad for this guy. He captures my mind and my imagination. His words pierce my soul. I saw "No Direction Home" this past week. I had to take it out of the library (too many dollars spent on CDs and books already) but I'm going to ask Santa to put it in my Christmas stocking. If you're a kindred spirit, when my progress reports and various meetings are done this week, I'm starting a Dylan thread for us to talk, sister!!
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Post by Gracie on Oct 16, 2006 21:21:27 GMT -5
YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS.
I have "Chronicles" too. I absolutely loved the way he described Baez in it...he hasn't always been kind when speaking of her.
I guess I've been listening to him for about 30 years...yeah, 'cause I was in my early teens when I discovered him. He just completely captivated me even then.
Check the library for the '4th Street' book. And I know it's been remaindered, so you might be able to pick up a copy in a discount bookstore. I had to have it immediately, of course, so I have a 1st edition.
Looks like we are gonna have a LOT to talk about. I could read before I went to school, and books are my LIFE. I have lived for years without TV and never missed it, but I couldn't go a single day without books and music.
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Post by SeattleDan on Oct 16, 2006 22:42:09 GMT -5
I'll echo the recommendation of "Positively 4th Street", a fine history of Dylan, Baez, Richard and Mimi Farina, as well as the Village scene in the early '60's. Richard Farina, author of "Been Down So Long It Looks Like Up to Me", was a very interesting 'cat', as they used to say. He was a classmate of Thomas Pynchon, who has a new novel coming out this fall.
But if somehow you could pack up your sorrows and give them all to me You would lose them, I know how to use them Give them all to me
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Post by Tillie on Oct 16, 2006 23:04:20 GMT -5
I used to like him quite a bit...well, he is from Minnesota. Bit of a sell out, though. Vicky's, accepting honourary degrees from universities...also, his voice = acceptable for a couple of songs. He'd be lucky to get a spot on my favourite show. However, he has written a few pretty good verses. Something sounds awfully familiar in one of his "new" songs.
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Post by Tillie on Oct 17, 2006 0:39:57 GMT -5
Dylan, Oh Howww I admire him! Thomas, that is!
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Post by slb2 on Oct 17, 2006 1:40:30 GMT -5
I think this is the first time I've ever been disappointed in the direction a thread has taken. I was so very much enjoying the initial discussion.
And I say that as an admirer of Dylan. In fact, when I was a new mom, I couldn't remember any lullabies, so I sang my baby Like a Rolling Stone and Tangled Up in Blue and whatnot as we rocked into the night.
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Post by booklady on Oct 17, 2006 4:24:43 GMT -5
...you might be able to pick up a copy in a discount bookstore. I had to have it immediately, of course, so I have a 1st edition. Are you my long lost twin?
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Post by booklady on Oct 17, 2006 4:27:20 GMT -5
I think this is the first time I've ever been disappointed in the direction a thread has taken. I was so very much enjoying the initial discussion. And I say that as an admirer of Dylan. In fact, when I was a new mom, I couldn't remember any lullabies, so I sang my baby Like a Rolling Stone and Tangled Up in Blue and whatnot as we rocked into the night. I beg your pardon, slb. We'll move Dylan talk to another place.
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Post by mike on Oct 17, 2006 5:34:22 GMT -5
My personal view is that threads go where threads go. Disappointment goes hand-in-hand with satisfaction. I don't think anyone needs to move anything anywhere; especially the subject of Bob Dylan.
I don't believe a subject of this nature would be complete without musical influences. For the most part, I'd say that we're all influenced by music in our intimate lives. When we're happy, sad, evil, blue, suffering, bright, fighting, loving... name it, there's music to accompany it.
Well, those are my notes (do, re, me) on this thread.
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Post by slb2 on Oct 17, 2006 10:34:13 GMT -5
I agree with Mike. There's no need (nor request) to move the Dylan talk.
Bookie, your comment <I beg your pardon, slb. We'll move Dylan talk to another place.> felt very shaming to me. My cheeks burned the moment I read it.
Did you feel personally offended by my remark?
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Post by booklady on Oct 17, 2006 16:12:05 GMT -5
Not at all, slb!! I was not offended. I felt bad that I had contributed to hijacking your thread about a very serious and important topic. Not that my passion for Dylan isn't serious and important, but, well, you know. I didn't mean to get passionate in the wrong place! Modified to add that I'm very sorry you felt shamed, slb. I would never do that to you. I want always for you to feel the exact opposite -- you embody so much that I admire and respect.
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Post by booklady on Oct 17, 2006 16:16:34 GMT -5
My personal view is that threads go where threads go. Disappointment goes hand-in-hand with satisfaction. I don't think anyone needs to move anything anywhere; especially the subject of Bob Dylan. I don't believe a subject of this nature would be complete without musical influences. For the most part, I'd say that we're all influenced by music in our intimate lives. When we're happy, sad, evil, blue, suffering, bright, fighting, loving... name it, there's music to accompany it. Well, those are my notes (do, re, me) on this thread. Actually, I have wondered if some of my hedging-toward-depressed moods of the past six month haven't been helped along by some of Dylan's music. I love it, I relate to it, I wallow in it, I allow it to make me cry, I hear it in my sleep. Sometimes I think I should stop listening, that maybe I would feel better if I did. I never get depressed, for example, listening to taped APHC shows. I get happy. What do you all think the connection is between music and depression?
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Post by scotbrit on Oct 17, 2006 16:17:02 GMT -5
That's the story of my life in one sentence.
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Post by booklady on Oct 17, 2006 16:17:54 GMT -5
I'll meet you anywhere but in this thread.
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Post by scotbrit on Oct 17, 2006 16:19:09 GMT -5
Suggested location Booklady?
Nirvana?
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Post by sisterbeer on Oct 17, 2006 16:29:53 GMT -5
What do you all think the connection is between music and depression? I think this observation I made during our most recent discussion of depression may tie into your question, Booklady. Ever notice what a dreadful bore Ecclesiastes is when you're not depressed? But, pick it up when when you're seriously dispairing, and every word is brilliant; the whole idea of "it really doesn't matter" is altogether comforting. And even that really doesn't matter, which is its genius. The genius of good Blues, I think, has parallels to the genius of Ecclesiastes.
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Post by booklady on Oct 17, 2006 16:41:44 GMT -5
As a serious chaser after wind (books, reading, info for info sake, knowing just to know, caring too much about what other people think), I am never bored by Ecclesiates. Maybe that means I'm always depressed! I did have to keep reminding myself of Ecclesiastes just recently when I toured this unbelievably affluent and gorgeous private boarding school in New Hampshire recently. I couldn't help but think about how wonderful it would have been for my three kids to get that kind of education (though I could never have parted with them at that age). But as you say, it doesn't really matter!
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Post by carolion on Oct 17, 2006 19:05:13 GMT -5
I like to do the thing where, on the one hand every tiny thing matters a LOT, and on the other hand, nothing matters at all. When I've got those two balanced (or whatever other opposites I'm exploring at the moment), then something - a third option - comes to life in between them.
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Post by brutus on Oct 17, 2006 19:39:24 GMT -5
On a different note: Could depression show itself when one is not satisfied with what he/she has at hand but rather sees something else that he/she could do without, but just has to have? This is a bit of a problem with me, hence my becoming God of Junk. ~B~
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Post by Gracie on Oct 17, 2006 19:59:38 GMT -5
Music definitely affects my moods. When Grizzy and I were separated, there were certain songs I couldn't even listen to, unless I WANTED to cry so hard it hurt. Bonnie Raitt's "I Can't Make You Love Me," the Everly Brothers "Born Yesterday," Toby Keith and "When Love Fades" and Melissa Etheridge's "Enough of Me" would rip my heart to ribbons every time. And sometimes that was what I needed: a good hard cry. God has designed our bodies so that our sad and painful tears have a different chemical composition than happy tears do: think about how raw your face feels when you've been crying a long time...those tears are very caustic, and getting them out of your system leaves you feeling drained, but better. You've gotten those toxins out. Happy tears are almost entirely pure water.
Conversely, when I am in a good mood, I like to listen to the MOST cheerful and upbeat music I can find. I love things like "Do You Believe in Magic" by the Lovin' Spoonful, and 'Oh, How Happy" by Shades of Blue, and Huey Lewis and "Stuck With You." I mean the kinds of things that make me turn it UP and belt it out as if I really had a voice.
You'd think I would do the opposite: listen to cheery music when I feel blue, and so on. But it doesn't work that way. I don't understand it. I just know that for years I had a Peanuts cartoon on my fridge that showed Snoopy lying on top of his doghouse, when a raindrop hit him...and he sat up and thought, 'This is a good day to be inside, looking out the window, drinking tea and listening to sad songs on the hi-fi.' And the last frame showed him at the window, with a teacup in his little paw and music notes all around his head...a pensive look on his face, and Charlie Brown behind him, looking ever so confused.
And that's the way it works for me. When I'm sad, I want sad music. It's a rainy night tonight and it was a bad day today. I think it's time to put the kettle on....
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Post by Tillie on Oct 17, 2006 21:05:28 GMT -5
We'll all have tea
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Post by slb2 on Oct 18, 2006 0:12:07 GMT -5
Not at all, slb!! I was not offended. I felt bad that I had contributed to hijacking your thread about a very serious and important topic. Not that my passion for Dylan isn't serious and important, but, well, you know. I didn't mean to get passionate in the wrong place! Modified to add that I'm very sorry you felt shamed, slb. I would never do that to you. I want always for you to feel the exact opposite -- you embody so much that I admire and respect. Ah, well. There ya go. When I read your <pardon me> note, I heard a Steve Martin voice with all the attitude and none of the humor. And when I looked at the accompanying emoticon in your message, I saw someone who was cut to the quick. I'm glad I maintained a measured voice in my response and that you cleared things up so loverly. I think I felt so hurt by your comment because I'm smitten with you, bookie. But now we are all family again. "We are family!! I've got all my sisters with me..."
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Post by mike on Oct 18, 2006 3:09:26 GMT -5
Now I feel like singing... Beatles of course!
I've Got a Feeling:
I've got a feeling, a feeling deep inside Oh yeah, Oh yeah. (that's right.) I've got a feeling, a feeling I can't hide Oh no. no. Oh no! Oh no. Yeah! Yeah! I've got a feeling. Yeah!
Oh please believe me, I'd hate to miss the train Oh yeah, yeah, oh yeah. And if you leave me I won't be late again Oh no, oh no, oh no. Yeah Yeah I've got a feeling, yeah. I got a feeling.
All these years I've been wandering around, Wondering how come nobody told me All that I was looking for was somebody Who looked like you.
I've got a feeling that keeps me on my toes Oh yeah, Oh yeah. I've got a feeling, I think that everybody knows. Oh yeah, Oh yeah, Oh yeah. Yeah! Yeah! I've got a feeling. Yeah!
Ev'rybody had a hard year. Ev'rybody had a good time. Ev'rybody had a wet dream. Ev'rybody saw the sunshine. Oh yeah, Oh yeah. Oh Yeah. Ev'rybody had a good year. Ev'rybody let their hair down. Ev'rybody pulled their socks up. (yeah.) Ev'rybody put their foot down. Oh yeah. Yeah! WOOOOHOO!
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Post by Trusty on Oct 18, 2006 12:07:31 GMT -5
So, is being bi-polar a purely physical thing, or an extreme action (or reaction) of one's depression and __________ (opposite of depression), OR something in between (both)?
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Post by slb2 on Oct 18, 2006 12:37:41 GMT -5
trusty, from my limited reading and exposure, as with other mental illnesses, bipolar is a chemical imbalance in the brain. The symptoms present as physical and emotional and mental--as in, illogical thinking. When one is manic, like my friend, she'd literally fly off somewhere, introduce herself to someone, always a man, and see where that would lead to. This is probably extreme, but this is what she, a strict Catholic girl, would do. Completely out of character. Emotionally, she'd alienate her friends and family. But welcome strangers and work-acquaintances. Her mental state was so compromised, she couldn't see how her situation moved from Point A--driving while intoxicated, to Point B--license revocation. Heaven help us that she doesn't end up with AIDS. (I wanted to write, "dead," but it sounds so flippant on a board, even this board, but it's the truth. What more can she lose?)
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Post by doctork on Oct 18, 2006 12:42:41 GMT -5
Trusty, I think "medical science" would say bipolar disorder is both physical and "emotional." There is a genetic component (slightly increased in incidence of BPD in relatives of those with the diagnosis), plus studies demonstrating unique abnormalities on imaging studies. And yet, some people with the disorder are severely ill, while others do very well, sometimes with only minimal treatment.
Also, some patients have mainly depression, while others have primarily manic symptoms, and many cycle between the two states.
It's a very mysterious condition, getting a lot more study and discussion now. That's to the good, but it seems the studies raise more questions than provide answers. Not to mention that good treatment is not always readily available. (Don't get me started on a health policy rant)
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Post by doctork on Oct 18, 2006 12:56:56 GMT -5
slb2, you are a very good friend; I will keep you and your friend in my prayers, as I too would fear for a potentially lethal outcome.
One of my bipolar patients (remember, I'm a family doc, so she had a psychiatrist, when she would see him) pulled a gun on a police officer while in a manic state. She was very fortunate, as she wound up confined in a mental hospital rather than shot by the officer in self-defense. Her loving husband took great care of their three young children (who I delievered) while she was in the hospital, and then took care of her when she was released, kept her on her meds and out of trouble. She is a wonderful person, near-professional level tennis player and instructor, when she is on her meds.
The alterations in mental capacity when ill are quite shocking. I hope we find better and more effective treaments and make them available to those who need them. My husband is a clinical nurse specialist in psychiatry and is always lamenting the lack of adequate funds for good mental health treatment.
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Post by Jane on Oct 18, 2006 13:42:38 GMT -5
I think most mental illness are biological, chemical and genetic in pathology. My family runs pretty heavily to anxiety disorders and depression. There are just way too many of us, raised in different families and in different parts of the country to have it be a coincidence. In other words, no matter our upbringing, it seems to still pop up way more than in the general population. I've always likened it to electrical wiring. Say the "room" is wired for electricity. Then an event occurs (even something as seemingly benign as a childhood illness or experience), the switch is flipped and the depression/anxiety blazes brightly. If you're not wired for the disease, when the switch is flipped, nothing happens. And anxiety and depression seem to be almost always present simultaneously.
In bi-polar disease and psychosis, haven't they shown that the brain images are markedly different from "normal" people.
Of course, that's not to say that people can't be made mad by horrific abuse as children.
Now I'm getting depressed. But that's also because I'm on deadline. A significant cause of anxiety.
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Post by slb2 on Oct 18, 2006 14:18:33 GMT -5
Jane, is your opinion based on your observations and gut instinct or something else? While I concur with your POV, I also wonder about the testable, observable facts. For me, when my anxiety/depression switch is flipped, I head straight into procrastination, which is a symptom of anxiety, but usually not recognized as such, imo. And most people brush it off as a personality flaw. It's both. I really could manage my procrastination more effectively, but I do the "put it off until tomorrow" act more than most. That is, I procrastinate more than most, but rarely worry. I'm too busy procrastinating. I also rarely get depressed. I'm genetically programmed to pop back up and tough it out. This is good, I think, but it makes it hard on my some of kids who are genetically programmed to flip into depression and/or anxiety due to Ace's genetic contribution. They've got their mother prodding them on, sometimes with a hot iron! When all they want to do is curl up and shut the world out. =Sigh= Funny how we manage to struggle through Life, eh?
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Post by Jane on Oct 18, 2006 14:36:34 GMT -5
Okay, disclosure warning here.....
I've had panic attacks and depression since I was about 13 (started just about the time my brother died). My father was clinically depressed and anxiety-ridden his whole life, and I thought that everyone felt that way all the time. His brother was in and out of institutions his whole life with similar problems but my dad "took it like a man." (Big mistake.) So I was just pretty much miserable my whole life until I finally just got so bad that I was on the verge of being agorophobic. I finally found a decent doctor (had been in therapy off and on for years with no good diagnosis: what were they thinking!?!) who disagnosed me with panic disorder and put me on an anti-depressant, a medication which also works for panic attacks. A month or so later, I suddenly realized that the world was not all in tones of gray and that I could actually get out of bed in the morning without feeling like I wanted to slit my wrists. That's when I discovered that I had been depressed for years and that my dad's way of seeing the world was definitely NOT the way everyone felt. It was an amazing discovery, and I am only sorry that I wasted so many years being so miserable. (I was in my 30's when I was finally diagnosed and treated). I feel as if I missed out on a lot of happiness, especially with my children when they were small.
The point being, once my brain chemicals were manipulated by pill chemicals, I was pretty much just fine. The medication doesn't do anything but take away that layer of grey fog that was over everything--I mean, no high or anything (dang!).
My sister's anxiety disorder manifested as OCD, a nastier creature, and she has had more problems than I have. I think we were both wired for the disease and sure enough, when something bad enough happened to flip the switch, Fireworks! On the other hand, my brother is just fine.
I doubt if I will ever stop taking this medication, and that's fine. When I wasn't on it, I spent most of my time crying, being angry, looking at the world through shit-colored glasses and being utterly non-productive. Now, I'm just sort of the normal kind of neurotic that being an English Major demands.
Gee, we are quite the assemblage of upper-middle-class mentally ill folks, aren't we?
Now, do I hit post or not?
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