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Post by doctork on Jun 14, 2021 16:31:06 GMT -5
I guess you watched CNN more than I do; I have usually watched only AC on weeknights, and Fareed Zakaria on Sunday (I think he covers international news and perspective really well), though if I feel the need to catch up on "real news" I will usually watch Jake or Wolf as time allows.
From the Left Coast, I pay less attention to NY news even though I used to live in NYC and went to college upstate; it's much closer to you in MA. Since I don't usually watch Chris Cuomo (I caught his "apology" at the start of his show because I hadn't yet changed the channel when AC was over) I didn't know all the details. What you describe doesn't inspire me to keep on watching through Cuomo's hour, which immediately follows AC; I usually change to PBS News Hour.
As far as Gov Cuomo's management of Covid, I'm more circumspect about how he should have managed it better. NYC was hit really hard largely because of population density (high rise buildings, multi-generational families) as well as inbound infection from Italy/Europe as well as China, though all the focus was on "stopping the China virus." Hospitals were full to overflowing with acutely and severely ill Covid patients, and thousands of "regular" beds were turned into ICU beds. There was an imminent shortage of ventilators, until we gradually learned that "proning" and steroids could lessen the need for ventilators, and then realized that intubation and ventilators were probably worse for most patients. Then monoclonal antibody therapy came along, though it took a while to figure out how to use that properly (after discarding oral Clorox and hydroxycloroquine).
All hospital staffs were working overtime, and those in direct patient care were wearing the triple layer "space suit" PPE, and they wore diapers because it took 30 minutes to get out of and then back into those suits if they needed to use the bathroom. Meal breaks were rare. Staff went home and stripped naked, threw clothes in the wash, then went into their homes - all in order to prevent infecting their families.
Under those circumstances, to me it made sense to move more stable Covid patients to nursing homes so that "full court press" hospital and ICU care would be available to those who would die without it. Only later was it realized how dangerous that was for Covid spread in SNF's, even if staff did use all the proper PPE (which was in short supply, remember?). When I was working at the height of Covid, we were allowed only one N-95 mask per week, covered by a disposable paper surgical mask, or a washable cloth mask. Same for the blue fluid-resistant surgical gown - one per week, and use a cheap disposable thin paper gown over that, which could be changed after each patient since we had enough of those. We had enough bouffant surgical caps/hats, shoe covers, and sterile gloves (we had to double glove too).
People have forgotten those acute shortages, and now say Dr. Fauci was flip-flopping when he first said most people didn't need to wear masks. No, he was trying to help maintain adequate supplies for health care workers. Outside of hospitals and NYC, most people didn't have Covid so most citizens did not need masks early on. There was also less certainty about respiratory spread. Remember how paranoid everyone was about touching their mail, bringing in groceries, etc? Initially that was feared much more than coughs and sneezes.
I haven't seen Toobin on CNN yet, can't say I've missed him, and certainly at this point I have less respect for any legal information he might offer. AC features physicians Sanjay Gupta and Lena Wen, and the medical aspects of the news are my main interest. Covid has been so overpowering and awful (my brother died last year in Florida of "pneumonia" and I'm pretty sure it was Covid), and I've had to deal with Covid every single day for 17 months - sorry, I just don't care much about Toobin.
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Post by booklady on Jun 14, 2021 16:59:57 GMT -5
Did NY not have an entire ship made available to them for Covid patients to be treated and recover? Whatever, I do think Gov. Cuomo should be compelled to explain a number of decision he made, from the nursing home disaster to the accusations of fudging numbers.
The Cuomos aside, it sounds like you are philosophically ok with CNN taking JT back. I vehemently disagree. He crossed an uncrossable line. He's an offensive, disgusting creep.
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Post by booklady on Jun 14, 2021 17:03:35 GMT -5
I still wash my hands when I get the mail, get home from the store, get gas, and touch community door knobs! ![:-X](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/lipssealed.png)
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Post by doctork on Jun 15, 2021 0:26:59 GMT -5
I keep a small bottle of hand sanitizer on the lanyard around my neck, use it and handwashing frequently but didn't leave the mail in the garage for a week before bringing it inside. The risk of fomite transmission is very low. Until you mentioned him I didn't know that Toobin was back on the air; I still haven't seen him, and I hadn't thought about him at all, philosophically or otherwise. I agree that he was offensive, but apparently inadvertently so, as he mistakenly thought he was in private, having turned off the Zoom call during a break. Americans love a story of "redemption" and CNN made a decision to give him a chance to publicly apologize and hopefully to redeem himself. The New Yorker fired him. Either stance could be justified, "depending". I don't know the man, or enough details of the incident, to make an informed decision (is he truly sorry, was it really accidental exposure), but I might be inclined to give him another chance. NB - I've also bought GK's books and seen one of his smaller solo shows since he had his "metoo" moment.
In NYC, I believe that a cruise ship was made available, as well as a temporary reconfiguration of the Conference Center, in order to provide additional patient care beds, but there were not enough people to staff them. There was not adequate staff for the hospitals, let alone for new sites. I took an online course in "ICU care for non-ICU physicians" and volunteered to help though I haven't worked in an ICU (other than L&D) in years. The situation was desperate.
Meanwhile, the nursing homes had staff and empty beds, so it may have seemed appropriate to transfer recovering hospital in-patients to nursing homes, though in retrospect it was not a good idea. I don't know how that decision was made, or why it would be made by the governor. While it was happening, most decisions seemed to be made by NYC health authorities.
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Post by slb2 on Jun 15, 2021 3:03:31 GMT -5
I didn't know about this Touchy Toobin fellow, but I do now and am aghast. That sort of behavior should disallow him for dignity's sake off mainstream airwaves.
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Post by booklady on Jun 15, 2021 6:56:19 GMT -5
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Post by slb2 on Jun 15, 2021 13:44:06 GMT -5
I pity those poor rodents. I don't even like rodents. But I can still have compassion for them.
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Post by doctork on Jun 15, 2021 15:51:17 GMT -5
My husband seems to know a lot about rodents, not sure why. But whenever there is a trivia or crossword puzzle question about rodents, I ask him - he usually knows.
When Gen and I went to Brazil there was a zoo attached to the hotel where we stayed in Manaus. The zoo had a capybara section - the world's largest rodents, much bigger than NYC subway's pizza-hauling rats! They were about the same size or even bigger than our Bernese Mountain Dog, who weighs 88 pounds. Too big to die in the walls.
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Post by booklady on Jun 15, 2021 16:40:44 GMT -5
I pity those poor rodents. I don't even like rodents. But I can still have compassion for them. I am scared to death of mice. They freak me out completely. Someone should invent some mouse birth-control-laced food for those Australian farmers to put out. Here on Cape Cod, to keep rabies off the "island" (it was originally a peninsula, until they dug the Canal), "stinky bait" food is laid out, or used to be, for raccoons and other animals to eat. The bait gives them rabies protection.
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Post by BoatBabe on Jun 16, 2021 8:30:52 GMT -5
Ewwwww. I don't think I can find an ounce of pity or compassion for a plague of mice.
I'm going to go ask my Australian and New Zealand friends how the heck they are doing.
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Post by jspnrvr on Jun 16, 2021 12:32:34 GMT -5
I pity those poor rodents. I don't even like rodents. But I can still have compassion for them. I am scared to death of mice. They freak me out completely. Someone should invent some mouse birth-control-laced food for those Australian farmers to put out. Here on Cape Cod, to keep rabies off the "island" (it was originally a peninsula, until they dug the Canal), "stinky bait" food is laid out, or used to be, for raccoons and other animals to eat. The bait gives them rabies protection. How 'bout, instead of birth control for mice, we invent some birth-control laced food for people, guys and gals, that will make them absolutely afraid of sex. Could even slow down the STD for a while.
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Post by doctork on Jun 16, 2021 15:34:42 GMT -5
If there are no babies being born, who will pay everyone's social security in 20 years?
We have two cats - mouse problem solved.
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Post by gailkate on Jun 17, 2021 10:18:00 GMT -5
Sorry, I have to go back to Toobin. I am amazed that a news junkie like me knew nothing about this, not the October offense or the firing or bringing him back last week. When I searched for it I immediately came up with a story in the NY Post, a somewhat tabloid flavored paper. Was it covered on network news? I was watching election coverage every waking moment, mostly MSNBC, CNN and PBS. Maybe regular network news covered it. So my first question is broad - where are we getting our news and what should we take time to follow? I get the NYT, WaPo, WSJ, Esquire, Vanity Fair, the Atlantic, several digests and the local rag I'm going to drop as 90% useless. How could I have missed this???
Specifically about Toobin. I've watched him and trusted his legal analyses for years. He's very good at explaining the law and how the courts work, the time it takes to build a case - all the nuts and bolts.
But this incident, set aside the disgust quotient, seems to me such a lapse in judgment he cannot be trusted to take his job seriously or think clearly. Does he have a sexual addiction? It's a very real and debilitating disease. I can't help thinking that must be the case with Toobin and I feel compassion for him and his family. But he shouldn't have come back. It's not a peccadillo. I read that he said "people have moved on." They shouldn't.
Oh, and Gov. Cuomo? He was the voice of the pandemic. He told the story every morning, answering questions with real details and not just giving a press statement - in the face of a barrage of misinformation from the federal government. I think K is spot-on. The state has suffered 53,000 deaths, 33,000 in NY City. It was horrific and could have been so much worse. Yes, he's a showman and a skirt-chaser, but I think the efforts to sling mud have to do with news frenzy.
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Post by doctork on Jun 17, 2021 18:38:06 GMT -5
I follow NYT, WaPo, WSJ, CSM, Seattle Times, AC360 and/or NPR news. I remember reading one brief story about Toobin's Zoom Call, then heard nothing more about it until this thread; I haven't yet seen him on CNN. In the past, I thought Toobin's legal analysis was good, and I appreciated his cogent explanations of complex topics. After the topic resumed here, I went back and read the original stories, as well as the recent ones. It seems he thought that the Zoom video and sound were turned off during a break in the session, as it was an "election simulation" where there were stand-in Republicans and stand-in Democrats who were entering individual break-out sessions. Toobin being the "legal analyst" (not R or D) was excused until the joint session resumed. Though he made a poor choice during "the break," break time is usually private time - use the bathroom, pump breast milk, whatever you don't want to do in front of everyone else. I'm sure you know that some people have "nooners" during the work day, or similar. Anyone remember "Afternoon Delight" and Starland Vocal Band? The Zoom era is new and weird, as on past conference calls we did not have viewers inspecting our home environments during those conferences. If you have worked in HR or supervised employees, you are aware that some people look at porn on their computer or their cellphone while at work or in a classroom. This is not an isolated occurrence. Now if that "inadvertent" aspect of Toobin's case is accurate (not a deliberatesick exposure), and he has been counseled and evaluated by professionals to rule out serious pathology, then I think his employers and the professionals who know the details are best qualified to decide whether he should return to the air. They know the business financial aspects too - is the $$$ benefit worth the risk. Many people masturbate, for most it seems a normal sexual behavior (speaking as a medical doctor). Some religions feel masturbation is a sin, but that's not in my religion, so if the topic hadn't been raised here, I wouldn't have noticed Toobin.
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Post by Jane on Jun 17, 2021 19:58:30 GMT -5
I always liked reading Toobin's books and his many articles in the New Yorker. But then, I still like Woody Allen movies too (well, the old ones anyway.) I guess I can separate such things out. Someone said, "Two plus two equals four even if you're told by a psychopath." Kind of the Bill Clinton analogy, I guess. Much about him to admire, much to...not...
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Post by slb2 on Jun 17, 2021 22:58:26 GMT -5
I am loathe to admit that I pull in news via NPR MPR and PBS NewsHour. When someone here or in another group I'm in (since 1998) bring issues up, I search out more facts and details. I use mediabiasfactcheck dot com quite often to understand where news might show bias. I also watch Unicorn Riot on FB for their coverage of major events. I don't follow anywhere near as much as most (all?) of you.
edit to add that I say "loathe" because I am not as informed as many of you. So I am loathe to reveal my meager intake of news.
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Post by doctork on Jun 18, 2021 2:03:59 GMT -5
I like Woody Allen movies also, but he is a good analogy: I think there he is abundant evidence that he is an immoral sicko, and he is unrepentent, continuing on with the same behavior surrounded by influential paid protectors, flouting his "I'm a total nebbish" personality to disguise this behavior.
The Clintons are longstanding grifters IMHO, as are the Trumps, although apparently Trump started with some real money inherited from his father, though I am not so sure how clean it was, or if Trump has left any amount other than unpaid bills he skipped out on.
Susan, don't feel bad, all those online subscriptions provide daily and weekly email summaries which I skim intermittently, dive deep when I have the time and interest (WSJ and CSM in paper also). Information overload is a challenge.
Tonight for the first time,I saw Toobin on AC 360, paired with David Axelrod to discuss the 7 - 2 SCOTUS decision to quash the third Trump-based effort to overturn Obamacare (the case has been brewing for several years). Axelrod gave the political rationale, Toobin the legal rationale as to why this like represents "three strikes and you're out;" Obamacare remains the law of the land because it is right and popular. People deserve to be able to buy decent health insurance, not get kicked out when they are diagnosed with cancer. Both men did an excellent job, but it was good to have the legal explanation again, not just the political side. So far I'm good with Toobin back on the air. CNN will keep him on a very short leash, and Toobin will gratefully comply, knowing he is fortunate to be given a second chance and will be monitored closely.
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Post by booklady on Jun 18, 2021 6:21:56 GMT -5
I'm wondering whether the Senate crowd that paraded large posters featuring photos of some of the ill people Amy Coney Barrett was planning to kill by her stealth plan to get on the Court and strike down the ACA will now apologize to her. I don't think so.
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Post by gailkate on Jun 18, 2021 9:28:53 GMT -5
I think there was some justification. Trump said he'd appoint judges who would represent him, period. Here's one reference to his many comments on how he'd design the court. As a presidential candidate, Trump criticized Chief Justice John Roberts for upholding the ACA twice and said he’d pick judges who would rule otherwise. He said he’d nominate “pro-life” justices who would overturn Roe v. Wade. The GOP platform said Trump’s Supreme Court appointments would “enable courts to begin to reverse the long line of activist decisions including Roe, Obergefell, and the Obamacare cases.” www.nbcnews.com/politics/supreme-court/trump-s-words-haunt-amy-barrett-she-vows-not-be-n1243214
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Post by booklady on Jun 18, 2021 13:05:40 GMT -5
I think there was some justification. Trump said he'd appoint judges who would represent him, period. Here's one reference to his many comments on how he'd design the court. As a presidential candidate, Trump criticized Chief Justice John Roberts for upholding the ACA twice and said he’d pick judges who would rule otherwise. He said he’d nominate “pro-life” justices who would overturn Roe v. Wade. The GOP platform said Trump’s Supreme Court appointments would “enable courts to begin to reverse the long line of activist decisions including Roe, Obergefell, and the Obamacare cases.” www.nbcnews.com/politics/supreme-court/trump-s-words-haunt-amy-barrett-she-vows-not-be-n1243214 Yep. True. Perhaps (?) all the more reason to say, gee, we thought you'd bow to Trump, but you turned out to be a jurist of integrity who is capable of using your own mind, experience, and knowledge of the law, and ruling on the law, just like you testified you would. ![::)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/eyesroll.png)
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Post by doctork on Jun 18, 2021 13:52:52 GMT -5
//Trump said he'd appoint judges who would represent him, period.// Therein lay a problem - he thought the entire government was there to serve him personally, especially the Justice Department, starting & ending with his impression that Bill Barr was his personal attorney. I know they taught Civics in NYC schools, but he must have missed the class.
I was not aware of any stealth plan that Amy Coney-Barrett had to get on the Supreme Court. Is that true and I missed it? I thought that she had been deemed qualified by the ABA (I think that is the group that does the informal thumbs up/down). Personally, my impression was that she was more conservative than my taste, but indeed seemed qualified. However, I don't know much about that process.
I've never thought much of party "platforms" because they tend to throw in everything but the kitchen sink, much of which is in there just to appease small sectors of the party; I'm probably nearly as enthusiastic about those who parade photos on posters at mass protests. However, Trump said almost all along his campaign that he would be a conservative who nominated conservative judges. [Never mind that he seems to have proposed aborting Marla Maples' pregnancy that resulted in that whats-her-name daughter he doesn't mention.] If there was any doubt, the point was made clear when McConnell would not even allow a hearing for Merrick Garland. What goes around comes around.
Which is why I am on the fence about the filibuster issue. If it is abolished now to favor Democrats, that will be used to favor Republicans in the future. There is benefit to bipartisanship; lack thereof can paralyze necessary government functions.
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Post by booklady on Jun 18, 2021 14:58:14 GMT -5
I was not aware of any stealth plan that Amy Coney-Barrett had to get on the Supreme Court. Is that true and I missed it? I thought that she had been deemed qualified by the ABA (I think that is the group that does the informal thumbs up/down). Personally, my impression was that she was more conservative than my taste, but indeed seemed qualified. However, I don't know much about that process. I was being facetious. ![P-)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/pirate.png) I'm glad she showed her independence. (I'm also glad she voted with the majority to preserve the ACA.) I think she is very well qualified, and I admire her as a human being. I don't think she got the respect she deserved, especially with the awful things that were said about her adopting children.
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Post by doctork on Jun 18, 2021 18:50:40 GMT -5
Even Clarence Thomas voted with the majority, and he has been anti-Obamacare in the past.
One of the reasons that I had to leave my years of beloved private family practice in Denver was because I was uninsurable due to pre-existing conditions, so I needed to remain employed until Obamacare or until I was 65 and eligible for Medicare. So - I AM A BIG FAN OF OBAMACARE!! It's far from perfect, but nobody in our nation should be uninsurable and forced to go without expensive but life-saving care because of that.
I recall some commentary about Barrett's family during her nomination, but only a fool could think parents would adopt a child as a political symbol. Critics probably do not have children of their own, and certainly have not experienced the prolonged and difficult process of international and interracial adoption. A cardiologist colleague of mine tried, but the child died of operable heart disease in Cote d'Ivoire before it could happen.
Most "conservative" and "pro-life" women/families terminate their pregnancies when they find out their own personal child has Down Syndrome or other genetic or congenital defect (or even if the baby is just inconvenient), so I admire those who walk the walk as well as talk the talk. Most don't. I'm one of the doctors who diagnose pregnancy and refer for testing, so I have seen what happens. Down Syndrome babies are a fraction of what they were prior to availability of antepartum diagnostic tests.
Associate Justice Barrett is from New Orleans and she went to Dominican High School, which is one the schools that parents who care about their children's education send them to. So if we met in person, we would bond over that second question we would ask each other. (The first is Are you from New Orleans? while the second is What school did you go to?)
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Post by slb2 on Jun 19, 2021 3:02:13 GMT -5
Most "conservative" and "pro-life" women/families terminate their pregnancies when they find out their own personal child has Down Syndrome or other genetic or congenital defect (or even if the baby is just inconvenient), so I admire those who walk the walk as well as talk the talk. Most don't. I'm one of the doctors who diagnose pregnancy and refer for testing, so I have seen what happens. Down Syndrome babies are a fraction of what they were prior to availability of antepartum diagnostic tests. This is so painful to read.
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Post by booklady on Jun 19, 2021 8:58:15 GMT -5
Most "conservative" and "pro-life" women/families terminate their pregnancies when they find out their own personal child has Down Syndrome or other genetic or congenital defect (or even if the baby is just inconvenient), so I admire those who walk the walk as well as talk the talk. Most don't. I'm one of the doctors who diagnose pregnancy and refer for testing, so I have seen what happens. Down Syndrome babies are a fraction of what they were prior to availability of antepartum diagnostic tests. This is so painful to read. I adore that young man with Down Syndrome who acts on "Call the Midwife." His character and his adoptive parents/guardians, are among my favorites.
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Post by BoatBabe on Jun 19, 2021 10:22:17 GMT -5
Yes, 16-1/2 years ago Belinda was told by the military hospital in Tacoma that she was carrying a Downs Syndrome fetus and they recommended a therapeutic abortion. She said, " So what? I'm not killing my baby." The positive text was inaccurate, although he was born with a G.I. physical anomaly that was surgically corrected shortly after birth.
Duncan just turned 16, graduated from high school and he's off to college.
I have to say this about the Supreme Court justices' decisions: I still expect "President Trump" to threaten to "fire" his appointees because they didn't "obey" him. I think "he" is that kind of crazy.
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Post by booklady on Jun 19, 2021 10:50:24 GMT -5
Wow, BoatBabe. That is a powerful story. ![:-*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/kiss.png)
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Post by slb2 on Jun 19, 2021 12:23:24 GMT -5
Yes, 16-1/2 years ago Belinda was told by the military hospital in Tacoma that she was carrying a Downs Syndrome fetus and they recommended a therapeutic abortion. She said, " So what? I'm not killing my baby." The positive text was inaccurate, although he was born with a G.I. physical anomaly that was surgically corrected shortly after birth. Duncan just turned 16, graduated from high school and he's off to college. I have heard several stories from the parents themselves about refusing to opt for an abortion due to fetal testing indicating a problem and THERE WAS NO PROBLEM! The children are fine. Additionally, Downs Syndrome and other "problems" are not insurmountable. The "problem" is as big as you make it.
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Post by doctork on Jun 19, 2021 14:32:40 GMT -5
I had many patients who declined any testing because they told me that it would not cause them to make a different choice in pregnancy management; such testing is not required. One test is not definitive anyway. Most of the time (depending on various factors), the test is a false positive and the baby does NOT have Down Syndrome. Often they are perfectly healthy, as your family and friends have noted. Also, the test result can be normal even when the baby has a problem. No test is perfect and parents are (supposed to be) reminded of this, but that fact is often forgotten in the terror that ensues when they are informed of an "abnormal" result.
It is ALWAYS important to remember that the initial lab test for possible Down Syndrome (and certain other abnormalities) is a SCREENING test; it does NOT mean that the baby has Down Syndrome. It means that there is an increased risk for Down Syndrome, so if desired, additional testing needs to be done to determine IF Down Syndrome (or some other problem) is present. The abnormal test result may be a sign of a different medical or surgical problem, or the baby may be perfectly normal. And even then, knowledge that the baby has a medical problem does not mandate termination of the pregnancy. In fact, the family may be referred to Children's Hospital to discuss how the newborn's medical care will best be managed. The delivery hospital may be changed to a tertiary care facility near Children's so that sophisticated newborn intensive care is available, and surgery too if necessary. For some problems, medical care for the newborn is better when the problem is known in advance and we are properly prepared from the start. Still, today there are one-half to two-thirds fewer babies born with Down Syndrome. Some years back, legislators in California proposed a law refusing Medical (the state's version of Medicaid) coverage for medical care of Down Syndrome children if the parents had declined antenatal testing. That went nowhere. There are medico-legal factors too. If a doctor does not inform the parents of the availability of testing, and a child is born with a defect or medical problem that could have been detected, the child and family can sue for wrongful birth (the doctor, med mal insurer , and taxpayers are liable for the cost of medical care and "damages") or even "wrongful life." Wrongful life is when the family and the court decide that the child would be better off if s/he had never been born.
But don't kid yourself. The problems can be very big, much bigger than anyone could choose to make it: Serious chronic illness with in a child with severe pain and multiple dangerous surgeries, pediatric death despite best medical efforts, maternal death that leaves a family and older children with no mother, bankruptcy, family break-up. Each situation is individual.
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Post by gailkate on Jun 19, 2021 15:38:19 GMT -5
Wonderful story about Belinda's baby. And K gives insight on false testing, failure to offer further testing and maybe insurance pressures. It's a deeply troubling challenge. Here are some general stats about Down syndrome cases. (Not sure how we got on Down syndrome anyway.) www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/birthdefects/downsyndrome/data.html There's lots more about developmentally disabled cases in general. I've been looking at some of this because of a great nephew with ASD (autism spectrum disability). Along the way I learned that suicide among mentally and physically disabled patients breaks down like this: #1 muscular sclerosis; #2 spinal cord injury; and #3 intellectually disabled. But from my light skimming, ID patients do not commit suicide more than abled people in their age group.
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