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Post by qhperson on Dec 27, 2007 11:55:57 GMT -5
Nothing about the assassination yet?
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Post by Brit on Dec 27, 2007 12:05:36 GMT -5
The assassination, 13 days before an election which Bhutto had hoped to win, throws up huge questions for this nuclear-armed U.S. ally already struggling to contain Islamist violence.
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Post by joew on Dec 27, 2007 12:29:09 GMT -5
Yikes! I hadn't heard. If this is what it sounds like, it is disturbing indeed. I agree with Brit.
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Post by rogesgallery on Dec 27, 2007 12:34:48 GMT -5
I think the great tragedy here is that she is a woman, in Pakistan, where so many people have been working so hard with so much success for the past 15 years to educate and empower the women. I am sure that this is a great disappointment to many, as well as the tragic loss of a national hero.
One thing is certain Benazir Bhutto MemSahib will be an inspiration to the coming generations of young newly educated Pakistani women.
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Post by gailkate on Dec 27, 2007 18:35:48 GMT -5
I hope you're right, roges, but the possible conflagration could erase what gains she had made.
An email has been revealed outlining security measures she requested and was denied by Musharrif. There was a request by some of our senators after the violence in Karachi, also pleading for the level of security due a former Prime Minister. It does seem just impossible that someone was allowed to get so close to her with a gun.
OTOH, she was standing up thru the van's sunroof, waving to the crowd. Her supporters say she should have been free to do that. I don't know what should be standard security - would Bush take a chance like that? I can't remember his doing anything at all like it.
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Post by joew on Dec 27, 2007 19:03:17 GMT -5
I'm not sure how you can prevent this sort of thing when the expected campaign style is large outdoor rallies, with the candidates getting close to the people. If the would-be assassins have 10 agents and nine are stopped, they still succeed. Or if they fail at one rally, they can try at another.
Despite the anger directed at Musharraf by Bhutto's party, if NPR is to be believed the actual killer probably came from the ranks of those who want to replace the current system with something resembling the Taliban: a theocracy. They don't want Musharraf any more than they wanted Bhutto, although they may consider Bhutto and real democracy more of a threat to their ability to get people on their side. And the reported decision of the other opposition leader to boycott the election may be good for his survival, but it means that all that is left to fight the Islamicist terrorists is Musharraf.
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Post by rogesgallery on Dec 27, 2007 22:53:27 GMT -5
This is just another effect of the Bush/Rumsfelt/Cheney ideology that you have to create terrorism in order to fight terrorism. And the terrorist ideology of — So you want to have a surge? Well then we'll take our terror elsewhere.
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Post by rogesgallery on Dec 27, 2007 22:56:42 GMT -5
Oh by the way Hi qh! Haven't seen you around for a while. You been off horsin around?
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Post by gailkate on Dec 28, 2007 0:25:18 GMT -5
LOL. Q's behind these beauties, pitching hay and singing horse operas. ![](http://northernhorse.com/southRamOutfitters/upload/CIMG2966.jpg)
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Post by doctork on Dec 28, 2007 2:45:25 GMT -5
Hi qh! Good to see you posting.
I was shocked when I turned on the news this morning while getting ready for work. I guess not truly surprised - there had been previous such attempts - but still the suddenness, the occurrence at such a critical juncture, the brutality was quite shocking all the same.
I have friends and colleagues in Pakistan, and I hope they are not in harm's way. Then I think of all the hospitable people I met traveling there, how it was so different from what I had expected based on the uncomplimentary picture painted by the US media, etc. It is a catastrophy for the nation and for its people, all around.
I won't even venture a guess on the various political theories; I'm skeptical of all explanations I hear in English. One thing I observed is that it appears that Musharref has almost no control of the semi-autonomous tribal territories (on the Afghan border where the Taliban and Al Queda hide out amongst their supporters). So I wouldn't be quick to decide that he didn't do enough to control the area and prevent this event.
Of the presidential candidate comments I heard on this, Joe Biden sounded most knowledgeable, then McCain. The others seemed either ill-informed or much more concerned about their candidacy than the Pakistani people and the global impact of this assassination.
I'm still scheduled to go to Afghanistan in May, though I may not visit Peshawar or Rawalpindi on this trip.
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Post by rogesgallery on Dec 28, 2007 3:42:44 GMT -5
Need someone to carry your bags Doc? I have experience in third world hotels, I've got a nice beard and I'll buy my own shaliwar kamiz. Sure would like to have a picture of the Karakoram, inshallah.
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Post by gailkate on Dec 28, 2007 10:08:35 GMT -5
If K is taking only bearded companions, I'm going to lead a protest.
Last night Dan Rather was interviewed because he had known Bhutto and talked with her over many years. Asked about his first thoughts when he heard, he said, "No surprise, and she would say the same." I'm afraid I've felt that way about her chances since she came back. The bombs in Karachi missed her but killed over 100 people. She was lucky then, but her chances were always very slim. The NYT has a good timeline with photos and video.
This morning our paper quoted a statement of hers that quoted Robert Browning. He said "ignorance is not innocence, it is sin."
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Post by doctork on Dec 28, 2007 11:50:51 GMT -5
I'll pick up the NY Times on the way to work today. I'm not sure of the context for the quotation. Mrs. Bhutto was certainly not ignorant - she clearly acted out of patriotism, to make her best effort to avoid takeover of Pakistan by its most radical elements, even though she knew the dangers.
My trip to Kabul is a humanitarian aid mission (medical of course). They need "logisticians" (handy persons and go-fers) as well as docs and nurses, so you are welcome to join up! We pay our own way of $3,000 all-in, with airfare, accommodations and meals, as well as a donation for purchase of medications and other supplies. It's a working vacation, not really a leisure trip, though if I had time, I'd have considered an add-on visit to northern Pakistan; I'd welcome the opportunity for a photo opp of Karakorum. I have postcards from my last trip...
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Post by rogesgallery on Dec 28, 2007 14:10:33 GMT -5
If were to guess I would say that she referred to the ignorance that has been allowed to languish in the Pakistani poor population. I am curious as to the context of Brownings statement.
$3000 seems like a fair sum considering the price gouging which goes on in a war zone, what with all the journalist bankrolls and such. I certainly have no illusion as too the dangers and the hard work that you and your people put in while you're there.
I really don't know much about the region other than the few books I've read and the friends I've queried that were over there in the military and climbers presentations I've attended. It would be a learning experience. Can you give me any more information K?
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rmn
![](http://emoticons4u.com/dressed/bek038.gif) Sleepy Member
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Post by rmn on Dec 28, 2007 15:21:21 GMT -5
DocK, you be safe over there. I have a good friend (civilian) who landed in Bagram on Christmas Eve. He's going to be with flight opns until June, then back stateside. I'll fill you in on his observations of the region.
RE: Bhutto -
I'm not convinced that elements of Al Qaeda were intimately involved, at least not with the planning of the assassination. These animals tend mostly to kill in indiscriminate fashion and avoid involvement in assassinations. On the other hand, it’s been determined that the cause of death was shrapnel from the bomb and not bullets from a handgun held by the bomber. So, it looks like conjecture is the order of the day.
Was her assassination planned from within the government? One of the things Bhutto wanted to do upon winning election was to disengage the military’s control of most of the nation’s infrastructure. She wanted to grant control to civilian corporate elements within Pakistan. With this in mind, it seems plausible that elements within the military (black ops/special forces) planned and carried out the assassination. Again, conjecture at best.
Thoughts on Pakistan’s nukes: The Americans, of course, have been instrumental for the past many years ensuring stability/security in Pakistan’s nuclear program. A built-in precaution, contingent on US assistance (ie, dollars), deals with the terribly complex command and control triggers for the nukes. Bottom line: The average terrorist swine wouldn’t know how to employ the devices if, in fact, he/she gained access to them. NOTE: There remains the issue of acquired fissionable materials being utilized in a dirty bomb. Experts have addressed associated ramifications (real and perceived) of a detonation in populated areas. Surely, we need to be concerned about the military’s upper echelon. I'm not aware of any current threat of destabilization from crazed zealots within this arena. The US needs to do assist in any way practical in ensuring a continuity of stability with the military. How this is going to be done is beyond me.
r
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Post by doctork on Dec 29, 2007 0:38:36 GMT -5
roges, I'll look up some resources for you - I know one really good book about the region is "The Great Game" but I forget the author. I have numerous books about Pakistan & Afghanistan downstairs that I'll dig out for you. And I'll PM you the website for the Kabul trip - it is indeed very reasonably priced, as the accommodations are modest and the trip is tax-deductible to boot, since the sponsor is a charitable organization.
I have a few good photos I took while I was in Pakistan (right before the armed guards threatened to take my camera if I didn't stop taking photos), but I am having technical difficulties. I'll get one of the kids to help me tomorrow.
Right now, it's off to bed, I am so tired from a busy week.
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Post by rogesgallery on Dec 29, 2007 1:23:54 GMT -5
I paid as much as that for two weeks in the Amazon and there you are not only a potential enemy, you are food.
Hope you don't have a virus Doc.
Tee hee Blink blink Roges
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Post by rogesgallery on Dec 29, 2007 5:45:13 GMT -5
Caravan By Michner was the first book I read about Afghanistan. Over the year I have read Kabul in Winter, The Carpet Wars, The Bookseller of Kabul, and most recently Three Cups of Tea. If you haven't read Three Cups of Tea, let me warn you to drink plenty of water before you start this book. It is one of the most powerfully inspiring books I have ever read.
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Post by doctork on Dec 29, 2007 10:14:05 GMT -5
I have the book Three Cups of Tea, but haven't read it yet; it's still on the bedside table, waiting for me to be sufficiently strong of heart to tackle it. Not only have I read The Bookseller of Kabul, I have purchased books from him! It's a true story of course. The definitive work for visitors or others interested is An Historical Guide to Afghanistan by Nancy Hatch Dupree (published by the Afghan Tourist Organization in 1970 which I bought from the bookseller of Kabul), but I also like the lonely planet's guide to Pakistan, and An Introduction to The Silk Road by Judy Bonavia. Another really good book is Sisters on the Bridge of Fire: One Woman's Journey in Afghanistan, India, and Pakistan by Debra Denker. Not a tourist guide, and the title pretty much says it all.
The author of The Great Game is Peter Hopkirk, and he has written several other authoritative books about central Asia.
My photos of Afghanistan and Pakistan are on this computer in PowerPoint presentations in read-only format, so I think I have to find the original Kodak CD (I used a disposable camera, in case it was confiscated) to post any photos. Unless those of you who are techier than I have suggestions?
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Post by rogesgallery on Dec 29, 2007 10:33:11 GMT -5
Thanks for the reading list K Sons like you have been sufficiently forewarned as to the emotional nature of Three Cups of Tea.
I personally don't know if you can use an administrative password to unlock those pics. I do know (kind of) that you can send a PPP in a compressed format called occlet? or something like that. I would have to search on it. But that's a big file. Did you use a password in setting up your Office suite?
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Post by gailkate on Dec 29, 2007 10:38:53 GMT -5
Hah! I'm the new resident techy, after my triumph with Thomas's Christmas gift. I have just one word to say to you: Photobucket!
Re. the Bhutto mess. CNN often brings in a journalist named Peter Bergen who seems very knowledgeable about the Middle East. He, too, sees complicity among the military, but he said lower level officers who are disaffected with the regime and susceptible to the al-Quaeda message.
The issue of exactly what killed her seems irrelevant to me - she died because of a murderous attack - but it's obviously important in how the story plays in the region. One commentator said she would be a martyr if killed by a bullet, which would be immeasurably powerful in the Islamic world. Hence, the government's new theory about falling on the lever of the sunroof. The blatant manipulation of this event just astonishes me. She was buried within 24 hours - probably Islamic tradition - and now any fantasy about cause of death can be spread by whoever has the most clout. And apparently people will listen.
Forgive the grisly comparison, but isn't this like saying JFK didn't die from the bullet but from the impact blowing part of his head off? And is everyone else sick of how our media have made this into a story about contenders in Iowa?
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Post by doctork on Dec 29, 2007 11:01:15 GMT -5
Maybe I take this more personal than most, but I agree with you gk. Iowa just doesn't seem very important compared to the news out of Pakistan. It is insulting to parlay the assassination of Benazir Bhutto into a US political referendum. And yes, under Islamic law, prompt burial of the deceased within 24 hours is required except under very unusual circumstances. I think I cannot move my photos to Photobucket unless I have the CD, and the PowerPoint file is too large to send. I have the CD - I'll just have to find it after work today, and then post the photos from that. So I won't be on the show thread today either, since I'll be in the clinic ![:(](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/sad.png) .
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Post by gailkate on Dec 29, 2007 12:01:36 GMT -5
Oh, too bad, K. But it's an old show - compilation maybe? - so our attendance may be light. I hope all your patients are as witty as we are. ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png)
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