Presidential debates

[slb2]

Sept 28, 2008 11:05:07 GMT -5 booklady said:

I realize I'm politically dumb and naive, but sometimes I think we should cut off aid to everybody until we can pay our own bills.

Just like real life.

We have automatic withdrawl for several charitable donations such as church, Compassion Int'l, & MPR.

We give regardless of our finances, quite frankly. And I know we'd give even if we lost our income. Not to the extent that we do now, but still, we'd give what we could.

[gailkate]

So do we, slb, but we still have the luxury of making that choice. We have a list that always gets a check, but lots of outriders I might send $25 bucks to now and then but don't think of as a commitment. Sort of ad hoc good works. My inbox is so full of requests for money we'd have been broke years ago if I gave to them all.

This year I've actually held off on the MPR membership. I know this is a terrible confession, but I've been mad at them. jerry keeps telling me to stop being petty and I will, but right now I've given their money to political candidates.

I see Bl's point, though. It's a tough call.

[joew]

I think McWife is great! "Independent" covers the "undecided" well enough. If you need to have something about middle-aged and make undecided explicit, Undecided middle aged gives uma, so put it all together and you have Uma McWife. LOL Or, to add midwestern, Umma McWife.

[rogesgallery]

It's terrifying to see how matters of war and peace can rest on a faulty translation. Ahmadinejad is a nasty little package, loving the international attention he gets, but he's no reason to go to war.
Hey, that was true of Saddam, too, wasn't it?

I have no way of making this judgment except for the statements of our president — his statements and actions make him a much nastier fellow than Ahmedinijad — and the statements of our intelligence community — I learned 38 years ago that their claims are not to be trusted.

[doctork]

Sept 28, 2008 23:59:57 GMT -5 @slb2 said:

We give regardless of our finances, quite frankly. And I know we'd give even if we lost our income. Not to the extent that we do now, but still, we'd give what we could.

I guess I think of a 10% tithe as a bill like any other. I aim for 10% charitable giving, though not a tithe to the church in the strictest sense.

After all, if I waited until "I have enough money," it probably wouldn't happen.

[booklady]

The vice presidential candidates are calling each other liars on taxes and Iraq and funding the soldiers and all kinds of things.

I feel like I'm in some demented nightmare version of that old logic problem where you are going down a road and come across two guys who both claim the other guy is lying and you're supposed to figure out which one is telling the truth.



John Wright
The Liar- Truth-Teller Enigma
October 14th, 2007 by John | Posted in Philosophy
Don’t ask me how exactly this happened, but in a cabin on a mountain over the weekend we got ourselves into the classic Liar-Truth Teller Enigma, later embellished by the brilliant logician Raymond Smullyan. It’s an old logic puzzle, which runs, basically, something like this. A man finds himself standing in front of two doors: one which leads to heaven and the other which leads to hell. In front of the doors are two guards, one which always lies and the other which always tells the truth. The man does not know which door is which, nor which guard is which. He must ask one question of one of the guards to determine which door will lead him to heaven.
You may recognise the puzzle from its use in The Labyrinth (1986) starring David Bowie and Jennifer Connelly (a film we later rented). After a couple of hours of testing it out using live liars and truth-tellers in front of two bookshelves (both of which led precisely nowhere), the keen examinees gave their answer: “Guard, what would the other guard say if I asked him where his door leads?” Whatever the reply is, the opposite is true. Why? Well, let’s say the door behind Guard A leads to heaven. If Guard A is a liar, then he will lie and say that Guard B would say his door leads to heaven. If, however, Guard A is the truth-teller then he will report that Guard B would say his door leads to heaven; and in this case Guard A is faithfully reporting the fact that Guard B will lie. Either way we have the same answer, and the opposite is true. In both cases the liar is involved in the answer and the answer is always false.

For other logic puzzles, click here. For the Hardest Logic Puzzle Ever, keep reading…

[ozski]

I do not believe I have ever sat through a VP debate in its entirety before. Gov. Palin seemed a little more confident than during her recent interviews, but I was truly impressed with Senator Biden this evening.

The following article was found at:

www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27001026/?GT1=43001

WASHINGTON - Facts went adrift on taxes, deregulation and more Thursday when Republican Sarah Palin and Democrat Joe Biden clashed in the vice presidential debate.

Some examples:

PALIN: Said of Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama: "94 times he voted to increase taxes or not support a tax reduction."
THE FACTS: The dubious count includes repetitive votes as well as votes to cut taxes for the middle class while raising them on the rich. An analysis by factcheck.org found that 23 of the votes were for measures that would have produced no tax increase at all, seven were in favor of measures that would have lowered taxes for many, 11 would have increased taxes on only those making more than $1 million a year.

___

BIDEN: Complained about "economic policies of the last eight years" that led to "excessive deregulation."

THE FACTS: Biden voted for 1999 deregulation that liberal groups are blaming for part of the financial crisis today. The law allowed Wall Street investment banks to create the kind of mortgage-related securities at the core of the problem now. The law was widely backed by Republicans as well as by Democratic President Clinton, who argues it has stopped the crisis today from being worse.

___

PALIN: "Two years ago, remember, it was John McCain who pushed so hard with the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac reform measures. He sounded that warning bell."

THE FACTS: Republican Sen. Chuck Hagel of Nebraska led an effort in 2005 to tighten regulation on the mortgage underwriters — McCain joined as a co-sponsor a year later. The legislation was never taken up by the full Senate, then under Republican control.

___

BIDEN: Warned that Republican presidential candidate John McCain's $5,000 tax credit to help families buy health coverage "will go straight to the insurance company."

THE FACTS: Of course it would, because it's meant to pay for insurance. That's like saying money for a car loan will go straight to the car dealer.

___

PALIN: Claimed she has taken on the oil industry as Alaska governor.

THE FACTS: Palin pushed to impose a windfall profits tax on oil companies and distributed the proceeds to the state's citizens to offset rising energy costs. However, she has also sided with the industry on a number of issues. She sued the Interior Department over its designation of polar bears as an endangered species. That puts her on the same side as the American Petroleum Institute, the oil industry's chief trade association. She also supports the industry's desire to drill in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge — a position at odds with McCain.

___

BIDEN: Said McCain supports tax breaks for oil companies, and "wants to give them another $4 billion tax cut."

THE FACTS: Biden is repeating a favorite saw of the Obama campaign, and it's misleading. McCain supports a cut in income taxes for all corporations, and doesn't single out any one industry for that benefit.

___

PALIN: Said the United States has reduced its troop level in Iraq to a number below where it was when the troop increase began in early 2007.

THE FACTS: Not correct. The Pentagon says there are currently 152,000 U.S. troops in Iraq, about 17,000 more than there were before the 2007 military buildup began.

___

BIDEN: "As a matter of fact, John recently wrote an article in a major magazine saying that he wants to do for the health care industry — deregulate it and let the free market move — like he did for the banking industry."

THE FACTS: Biden and Obama have been perpetuating this distortion of what McCain wrote in an article for the American Academy of Actuaries. McCain, laying out his health plan, only referred to deregulation when saying people should be allowed to buy health insurance across state lines. In that context, he wrote: "Opening up the health insurance market to more vigorous nationwide competition, as we have done over the last decade in banking, would provide more choices of innovative products less burdened by the worst excesses of state-based regulation."

___

PALIN: Said Alaska is "building a nearly $40 billion natural gas pipeline, which is North America's largest and most expensive infrastructure project ever to flow those sources of energy into hungry markets."

THE FACTS: Not quite. Construction is at least six years away. So far the state has only awarded a license to Trans Canada Corp., that comes with $500 million in seed money in exchange for commitments toward a lengthy and costly process to getting a federal certificate. At an August news conference after the state Legislature approved the license, Palin said, "It's not a done deal."

___

PALIN: "Barack Obama even supported increasing taxes as late as last year for those families making only $42,000 a year."

BIDEN: "The charge is absolutely not true. Barack Obama did not vote to raise taxes. The vote she's referring to, John McCain voted the exact same way."

THE FACTS: The vote was on a nonbinding budget resolution that assumed that President Bush's tax cuts would expire, as scheduled, in 2011. If that actually happened, it could mean higher taxes for people making as little as about $42,000. But Obama is proposing tax increases only on the wealthy, and would cut taxes for most others. In the March 14 budget resolution supported by Obama and Biden, McCain actually did not vote.

[gailkate]

I'm still drained from watching that debate. Yes, I'm biased, but I think Biden stayed on point and offered facts and substance. Palin was all over the place, reciting prepared paragraphs wherever she could get them in.

A friend wrote me:
I read that Newt's GOPAC trains its candidates to answer questions the way Palin did--if you don't know or don't have a strong answer, rephrase the question to show you've taken it in, find a talking point that has some general connection with the theme (er, health care...need for it in this economy...tax cuts will help economy ), segue to your talking point, and you're off and running.

I think that's why it was so exhausting to listen - struggling to make a connection to the question when there was no connection. Gwen Ifill is a smart but very passive moderator; anyone tougher would have insisted on answers and not allowed so many "I want to go back to" digressions. This was the format McCain's people insisted on, but I wish Ifill had been more strict.

Later I realized Palin was exactly like me taking college exams. I spewed out everything I could think of - just fill up the bluebook and hope to dazzle with verbiage. ;D

[Trusty]

Oct 3, 2008 9:16:45 GMT -5 gailkate said:

Gwen Ifill is a smart but very passive moderator; anyone tougher would have insisted on answers and not allowed so many "I want to go back to" digressions. This was the format McCain's people insisted on, but I wish Ifill had been more strict.

Later I realized Palin was exactly like me taking college exams. I spewed out everything I could think of - just fill up the bluebook and hope to dazzle with verbiage. ;D

Facts don't win debates. Early in the debate, Ifill called Palin's hand by saying that she didn't answer the question, and Palin said she wasn't going to answer questions the way Ifill or Biden wanted them answered, but talk directly to the American people.

She put herself into the position to take charge of the debate - something that Biden didn't recover from until the last 25 minutes or so. In the voting booth, a lot of "undecided" voters are going to remember how Palin exhibited a surprising and 'refreshing' quality they want in a future President - facts be damned.

And they can connect with her - remembering their college exams.

[booklady]

Trusty, I think there will be at least a similar number of people who were offended by her arrogance and overdone folksiness. At first I thought she was doing very well, but her refusal to answer the questions first seemed silly to me and then annoying.

[liriodendron]

I took her refusal to answer the questions as stonewalling. It certainly wasn't, in my mind, playing by the rules. Either you are there to answer questions or you are there to make a speech. She appeared to be doing the latter.

I didn't much care for the folksiness, either, and heck, I talk just like that. But not when I'm interviewing for a job, or presenting a budget, or speaking before a group. Then I use a much more professional manner of speaking. I would have expected a candidate for vice president to do the same. She was a little too darn perky for me.

As for Biden, he needs to cut down on the tooth whitening. His smile was distracting. And condescending, in my opinion, whenever he flashed it as Palin went off on one of her folksy tangents.

[gailkate]

Interesting, I didn't think he was patronizing. Of course, he'd been warned to be verrrry careful of that, so maybe you saw flashes that I just missed.

When she kept referring to General McLellan, he manfully restrained himself from correcting her. He had described McKiernan's request for a different approach in Afghanistan, and she jumped in, blathering about what McClellan had really said. General George B. McClellan served as commander of the Union army during the Civil War, from Nov. 1861 - March 1862.

My greatest objection to her is her ego. She likes doing the aw-shucks pretend humility, but she has no idea how little she knows. I think she's taken "Legally Blonde" as her model, the pert and cute little lady who's really sharp - in a pert and cute way.

[liriodendron]

I don't think his comments were patronizing. It was just the way he kept smiling at her each time she zoomed off into another of her non-answers -- as if she was just too cute to be any sort of threat. Maybe it was just me, but I kept seeing those smiles as a sort of shorthand to the audience that we were just letting the little lady have her moment, but that we all knew she really didn't belong here, which I saw as condescending.

[gailkate]

I decided i'm not capable of commenting and paying attention at the same time, but I'd like to hear everyone's reactions after the debate.

One thing I'm wondering is why TN was chosen. I'm not sure undecided voters in TN are the same as undecided voters in PA or MI or wherever. I wonder how they were chosen.

[booklady]

I've been listening to msnbc tonight while doing other things. What in the heck are they talking about with McCain and Palin and some "dangerous" things they have apparently been talking about (accusing/attacking) Obama? They're accusing Palin of lying in stump speeches. What gives? Has Obama been associating with terrorists? Is someone trying to instigate assassination? I truly do not like what I've been hearing.

BTW, I Tom Brokaw.

[booklady]

ANSWER THE FREAKING QUESTION!!!

[gailkate]

I couldn't get into this site last night. I'd have been happy to explain. Obama was 8 years old when a group of radical anti-war activists bombed some buildings (3?) to protest the war. This group was called the Weathermen or Weather Underground or something like that, and two members were Bill Ayers and Bernadine Doorn. (Yes, the name was derived from "You don't have to be a weather man to know which way the wind blows."

No one I knew - and we were pretty fiercely anti-war - condoned bombing buildings. The buildings were all empty at the time and just one person died - one of the bombers.

Ayres and Doorn were charged but not convicted. Decades later, Ayers had gone respectable, gotten active in South Side politics and became a professor, living in a desirable Chicago neighborhood. Obama, coming up in IL politics, bought a house there, too. He and Ayres served on 2 charitable boards together - along with many others, including Republicans. The far right dragged this up a few months ago and now Palin has revived it, repeating at every opportunity that Obama "pals around with terrorists."

You could Google a more coherent account, but try to find one that's reasonably objective, not a rightwing blog. No one thinks Ayers was a hero, and I'm not defending what he did. But it was 40 years ago and Obama was never ever part of that group. We didn't call them terrorists then, and I'm not sure the term is quite accurate. They didn't target people, just buildings as symbols of the military/industrial/educational complex that fed the war.

Btw, I think Obama won last night. I was sort of disappointed in Brokaw as some of his questions seemed like a waste of time. Why ask who each candidate would choose for his Sec'y of Treasury?

[booklady]

Last night's debate was so frustrating I finally went into the kitchen and washed the dishes. Honestly, fifth graders are easier or at least comparable to listen to.

"He did this."
"No, I didn't. He did that."
"No, I didn't, I did this."
"No, he didn't, he did the other."

Really, stop with the lies, manipulations of the truth, and contradictions. I no longer believe any statistics cited by either candidate about the other's votes in the Senate, for or against budgets, taxes, wars, or boxers vs. briefs. I want straight answers to questions, a little humility about personal failings and an admission that not everything is easy to fix. I want the American people to be told to get out of debt and a commitment that the feds are going to do the same. I want to stop paying through the nose to fix other people's problems, when they can afford it and we can't.

Frankly, if these two are the best that America can do, we're in deeper trouble than we thought.

[booklady]

And I agree about Tom Brokaw, though it wasn't his questions that bothered me. After the first warning about going over time limits, he should have just called loudly for the hook. One warning to shut up after a minute, and then he should have just interrupted them and told them to stop talking. If these people can't budget one minute of time, how can we expect them to budget trillions of dollars?

I am just pissed off as hell this morning about that debate and the utter lack of visionary leadership in this country.

[booklady]

One more thing: was McCain's snide remarks about "gold plated" health insurance and hair transplants a personal dig at Joe Biden?

gk, thanks for that info on Ayers. I remember the Weathermen. Palin's being called the "barracuda" now, I guess.

[gailkate]

I don't know. I guess we shouldn't talk about politics.

[sailor]

I didn't watch or listen to the debate; just couldn't muster up the interest.

Frankly I don't know why they call them debates anymore. There must be a better word or phrase that would better describe the modern televised political debate. And, how a winner is determined is beyond me. The debate ends and both sides declare victory; truly a win/win situation. One good thing about the debate is that is gives the politicos a chance to screw up on television and internet and have it played back over and over again all over the world. Remember Howard Dean's yeeha speech?

[booklady]

Oct 8, 2008 13:40:44 GMT -5 gailkate said:

I don't know. I guess we shouldn't talk about politics.

Why not? I was mad about the debate, not at anyone here.

Talking about these things helps me to express frustration, but reading the comments of others helps me to understand what I don't know, which might be things contributing to my frustration. IOW, venting + learning. It's all good.

[joew]

In general, I think it is good to talk about politics. I suppose we aren't likely to change each others' minds, but I like being able to express an opinion from time to time.

This time around, I've sort of tuned out the campaign. I haven't noticed any real discussion of the issues I consider important, and I haven't expected any in the debates. Basically, in my mind, it's all about the Supreme Court, and I do not want any more Justices who take it on themselves to decide that the Constitution has been amended without a vote of Congress or the States simply because they think that American society's thinking has changed on a topic to reflect the Justices' thinking — IOW making their personal predilections, projected onto the populace, the law of the land. We must not have Obama putting people who will treat the Constitution as silly putty in their hands onto the Court. So I've heard all I need to, and I'm ready to vote.

[doctork]

Oct 8, 2008 13:13:28 GMT -5 booklady said:

One more thing: was McCain's snide remarks about "gold plated" health insurance and hair transplants a personal dig at Joe Biden?

gk, thanks for that info on Ayers. I remember the Weathermen. Palin's being called the "barracuda" now, I guess.[/quote

I don't think Senator McCain knows much about health insurance, probably because he has never had to worry about it himself - he has always had access as a member of Congress and as a former career military officer. And the wealthy never have to scrape to afford the $400 co-pay on a $2,000 medication; the average person just wouldn't take that medication because he/she couldn't afford it.

Some people with good insurance coverage are prone to think the "other people" have overly generous insurance that costs "too much," subsidized by the taxpayer. As far as I know, hair transplants and other cosmetic procedures are not covered by any health insurance, but that was the only example McCain could think of as "gold-plated." Most insurers cover only medically necessary treatments which by definition are hardly "gold-plated."

So far I haven't seen much worth the time of watching on the "debates." I thought Rick Warren's interviews from Saddleback Church were far more informative.

And any accusation involving how many votes is usually meaningless. Fifth grader stuff as booky says.