|
Post by rogesgallery on Mar 31, 2008 23:31:05 GMT -5
Dalai Lama against Olympic boycott
Posted Tue Mar 18, 2008 11:03pm AEDT
The Dalai Lama, Tibet's spiritual leader, has reiterated he is against any boycott of the Beijing Olympics, saying Chinese people should not be blamed for the situation in his homeland.
"The Olympic Games do not take place in Lhasa. The Olympic Games take place in Beijing," he said.
"It is illogical to blame millions of Chinese."
Some Tibetan exile organisations have been calling for a boycott of the August games after an eruption of protests and rioting in Tibet and a tough Chinese crackdown.
The Tibetan government-in-exile says its confirmed death toll from clashes between Chinese authorities and Tibetan protesters has now risen to 99.
"Confirmed, we have cross-checked the various reports," government-in-exile spokesman Thubten Samphel said.
He says 19 Tibetans were killed in fresh protests on Tuesday.
Torch relay
Activists have sent a letter to the International Olympic Committee (IOC) demanding the Himalayan region and three neighbouring provinces be withdrawn from the Olympic torch relay.
Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao says the riots in the Himalayan region were incited with the aim of sabotaging the Games.
The torch relay, which starts next Monday when the Olympic flame is lit in Ancient Olympia, Greece, is scheduled to go to Tibet twice.
The International Tibet Support Network says it has sent a letter to the IOC demanding that the torch relay not go through Tibet, Qinghai, Sichuan and Gansu provinces, all home to ethnic Tibetans.
"Unless the IOC wants the Olympic Torch to become a symbol of bloodshed and oppression, they must immediately withdraw all Tibetan provinces from the Olympic Torch relay route," a spokesperson said.
The torch relay schedule was drawn up by the Beijing Organising Committee for the Olympic Games (BOCOG) before being given rubber-stamp approval by the IOC last year.
Resignation
The Dalai Lama has also offered to resign if the violence in Tibet spins out of control.
He has denied Chinese claims that he incited the riots, saying he only wants to see peaceful protests.
He says he is not pushing for Tibetan independence, insisting the people of China and Tibet can live side by side as citizens of the same country.
The Tibetan spiritual leader has challenged the Chinese government to produce evidence to support its claims.
"So this is, I think, your responsibility. Investigate," he said.
"Chinese telling me, Liar, Liar. So please, you investigate, who is liar?"
- ABC/AFP/Reuters
|
|
|
Post by slb2 on Apr 1, 2008 1:39:23 GMT -5
This is all quite fascinating, if not lengthy. I hope that joew resumes his stance and continues to voice his opinions. I sit and learn....
|
|
|
Post by rogesgallery on Apr 1, 2008 3:27:16 GMT -5
I imagine Joe is reloading and I expect a barrage of well ordered ducks by morning.
|
|
|
Post by rogesgallery on Apr 1, 2008 4:00:37 GMT -5
Should the Olympics be allowed to be a political football; not just this time but every time? If the answer is yes, then I seriously say scrap the games. If the answer is no, then lets keep politics and sports separate. Solve political problems in the political arenas and play sports games in sports arenas. As for China, well, we embraced them and turned our backs on Taiwan back in the ‘70s. And, I guess we really love those Chinese guys too, because almost everything I own is made there. Like this computer keyboard that I'm pecking on right now. If you feel strongly about doing something -- boycott Chinese goods... forever, if you can. Mike Great observations Mike. With all the unrest in the world, making the Olympics a political battlefield isn't worth the danger for both the athletes and the spectators.
|
|
|
Post by doctork on Apr 1, 2008 8:24:04 GMT -5
Thanks for the stories of the Dalai Lama's opinion roges. I'll go with his thoughts, as he is not only the leader (spiritual and political) of the Tibetan government and people, but he is also one f the wisest men on earth. He certainly understands the politics involved.
As an aside, several years ago, the Dalai Lama and Desmond Tutu were in Vancouver, BC to celebrate the opening of a Tibetan Studies Center at Simon Frasier University. I had the privilege of being present at a talk they did together. I could feel the presence of greatness in both of them.
|
|
|
Post by joew on Apr 1, 2008 21:13:50 GMT -5
… If China was bent on world domination why did they decline when offered the lush agricultural country of Vietnam in Yalta after WWII and then turn around and reabsorb the barren landscape of Tibet? That was when Chiang Kia-Shek was in charge, and doesn't tell us anything about how the Communists felt about it under Mao. I also prefer treating other nations with respect. I'm not sure that it inextricably linked to admitting our historic faults, but admitting them is not a bad thing to do.
|
|
|
Post by joew on Apr 1, 2008 21:26:14 GMT -5
… Dalai Lama makes fresh appeal for Beijing talksPosted Fri Mar 28, 2008 10:34pm AEDT The Dalai Lama has appealed to China to enter into "meaningful dialogue" over the crisis in Tibet, and asserted he did not want to undermine the Beijing Olympics and was not seeking independence. In an open letter to his "Chinese brothers and sisters," the exiled spiritual leader said he was a "simple monk" trying to preserve "the Tibetan people's distinctive culture, language and identity." "Even at this juncture I have expressed my willingness to the Chinese authorities to work together to bring about peace and stability," he wrote. "I have appealed to the leadership of the PRC (People's Republic of China) to clearly understand my position and work to resolve these problems. I urge the Chinese leadership to exercise wisdom and to initiate a meaningful dialogue with the Tibetan people." I'm happy to defer to the Dalai Lama on the point. When will the government of China respect "the Tibetan people's distinctive culture, language, and identity"? I also agree with him that "China also needs to earn the respect and esteem of the global community through the establishment of an open and harmonious society based on the principles of transparency, freedom, and the rule of law." If boycotting the Olympics would not be helpful, then we should seek other, more effective means of persuading China to respect Tibetan culture and religion. IOW political independence is not absolutely necessary if they are allowed to preserve their culture and practice their religion.
|
|
|
Post by slb2 on Apr 2, 2008 0:18:21 GMT -5
I'm not being a smartie here, but let me tell you a story. When the Acadians up in Nova Scotia were banished from their land and eventually congregated in Louisiana, under the moniker Cajun, they also had their own language, culture, beliefs. They held onto their heritage for centuries, but endured shame and persecution (although that may be too strong of a word).
Children were not allowed to speak in school the language they grew up with--Cajun French. The whole culture was mocked and denigrated. But at some point in the 1960s Dewey Balfa and his brothers began to bring their music to prominence. And eventually BeauSoleil, lead by Michael Doucet really catapulted Cajuns to respect.
Obviously the Cajuns' plight wasn't as the Tibetians is, but there can be the same kind of renaissance via the arts of Tibet.
|
|
|
Post by slb2 on Apr 2, 2008 0:45:35 GMT -5
In fact, I can cite at least two more revivals of culture through music. The Carolina Chocolate Drops with their mentor Joe Thompson, would be another example of a people who were beaten down (emancipated slaves) and whose music and culture returned through the determination of a few dedicated souls who felt that the way up was on the strings of a fiddle and the rhythm of a bone.
|
|
|
Post by slb2 on Apr 2, 2008 1:10:46 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by rogesgallery on Apr 2, 2008 1:21:30 GMT -5
I'm not trying to win at this conversation. I'm merely trying to make clear that my premise of Tibet being Chinese is valid. # We believe that China’s territorial integrity should be respected, including her claim to sovereign rights over such outlying territories as Tibet and Outer Mongolia. We would not oppose, however, any agreements respecting those territories reached by process of amicable negotiation between China and other interested governments. We hope that the Chinese Government will meet the aspirations of the native peoples of such territories for local autonomy. Excerpts from Roosevelt-Stalin Meeting February 8, 1945, 3:30 PM, Livadia Palace PRESENT UNITED STATES SOVIET UNION President Roosevelt Marshal Stalin Mr. Harriman Foreign Commissar Molotov Mr. Bohlen Mr. Pavlov Bohlen Minutes teachingamericanhistory.org/library/index.asp?document=918#1digicoll.library.wisc.edu/FRUS/
|
|
|
Post by rogesgallery on Apr 2, 2008 1:27:31 GMT -5
I think you're trying to change the subject slb... Not a bad Idea... Joe? Would you like the last word?
|
|
|
Post by slb2 on Apr 2, 2008 1:34:56 GMT -5
No, no. Not trying to change the subject, but to add what I can to it. You stated that you were writing from your memory of events, earlier. I have no memory of any of these events. If I ever learned them in school, I've forgotten. I was born in 1963, so my first real memory of anything political is the Watergate scandal and that is only a child's memory.
But I know music. (I'd hope, a little tiny bit) so I can contribute that POV.
Keep talking...
|
|
|
Post by joew on Apr 2, 2008 10:32:35 GMT -5
I'll concede that the case for Tibet being part of China is a strong one. I'll simply note a few caveats.
To the extent that it relies on the Mongol sovereignty over both China and Tibet it should be understood that such empires often break up, as did this one, so the fact that the two peoples were once in the same empire does not prove that they are still one country.
The victors of the two world wars took a lot of liberties in assuming the right to settle the borders of countries other than their own.
It is clear to me that the Tibetan people do not consider themselves Chinese and, based on the quote that the Chinese regard the Tibetans as thugs, neither do the Chinese.
Whether the 19th century movement of creating separate nation-states for the peoples of the Hapsburg empire was wise, and how far it should be a governing principle today is certainly open to discussion. But it seems to me that the Tibetans have a distinctive enough history, culture, ethnicity, and religion that they are entitled to preserve their way of life. If that becomes impossible under Chinese sovereignty, I think they are entitled to independence as a matter of human rights (although clearly they would find it almost impossible to achieve it by force of arms).
|
|
|
Post by gailkate on Apr 2, 2008 10:47:49 GMT -5
Thanks for the link, slb. I confess, when you first mentioned music, I thought "What Music?" Interestingly, the singer you found sounds like the chanting and rhythms of some American Indian music.
When we first started this discussion I was struck by similarities to Iraq- especially Kurdish territory, Chechnya, parts of Africa - when does a government have the right to put down what it sees as insurrection? The Chinese clearly think they are in the right, but their brutality makes that hard to accept. Is there ever a right side? Who was "right" in Northern Ireland?
I'm not arguing with your facts, roges. I love when someone else does the gritty researching. But it seems to me that the Chinese treatment of Tibetans is no more justified than the attack on marchers in Selma or any of the other civil rights confrontations.
And the idea that the Olympics is a neutral oasis where countries can compete in pure sports is unrealistic. Would the IOC award the games to any oppressive regime that can come up with enough hotel space?
|
|
|
Post by doctork on Apr 2, 2008 12:57:12 GMT -5
//The victors of the two world wars took a lot of liberties in assuming the right to settle the borders of countries other than their own.//
Amen to that! I'm not the student of history that you all are, but I have certainly observed up close and personal all the problems resulting when the Durand Line was rather artificially drawn as the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan. And then there are all the disputes about the Holy Land borders determined post-WWII.
slb, you're right about music and the arts being a link between peoples that can create brotherhood outside of politics. So can sports. So can humanitarian aid. We all have our role to play, including doing the informative research and speaking out, asking the questions.
Are the Carolina Chocolate Drops part of the lowland Gullah culture that persisted for hundreds of years, despite adversity?
|
|
|
Post by rogesgallery on Apr 2, 2008 14:36:20 GMT -5
I will concede that the Tibetan language, culture, and physical make up is unique. A Couple of interesting facts: It is theorized that some large element of Alexanders army deserted and ended up in Tibet and the interbreeding resulted in their unique physiology in the region. It is also a fact that their language is so similar to both Basque and Irish as to cause no great barrier to communication.
//I'm not arguing with your facts, roges. I love when someone else does the gritty researching. But it seems to me that the Chinese treatment of Tibetans is no more justified than the attack on marchers in Selma or any of the other civil rights confrontations.//
You're right there Gail and I wholeheartedly agree. I have never intended to justify the Chinese actions. I've merely drawn on logical parallels in our behavior that refute our moral authority. I don't consider America an evil nation but I can't see where we can honestly claim altruistic authority. Our authority in the world is derived from our economic wealth not from our collective moral or humanitarian values.
Finland and Norway Switzerland have long standing moral authority. Germany and Japan have gained some moral authority in having admitted the errors of their past and rejected the option of violent aggression.
//I was born in 1963,// That is so cute slb. You were just a leeeetle girl when I was reading my first books on Tibet. I have a tape of Tibetan monk chant and one of a Tibetan womens choir.
Gail? I got your Email about the recorders. I really don't play them though. Like you I just like to play with them and I am fascinated when I hear a professional play complex music on a recorder.
|
|
|
Post by rogesgallery on Apr 2, 2008 15:28:46 GMT -5
One other thing. From the reports and pictures that have filtered out of Tibet these were not non violent protests and from my experience Buddhist priests are by no means pacifists. The most violent riots in Vietnam were led by Buddhist monks protesting Government and Christian persecution.
Again, I am not trying to justify anything — just the neutral facts.
Oh by the way Joe I apoligize if my comment equating Altan Khan to the Bush's offended you. I am very aware that Bill Clinton made economic decisions which helped to precipitate the economic difficulties we are now experiencing.
|
|
|
Post by michael on Apr 2, 2008 19:28:38 GMT -5
A little known fact in the United States: The two top Sumo wrestlers in Japan are Tibetan. This is a well known fact here.
If Sumo was an Olympic sport and those guys competed, Tibet would be assured of a Gold Medal because they are that good!
But, alas, Sumo has as much of a chance making it to the Olympics as male synchronized swimming… ah, the things that we could've, would've, should've.
Mike
|
|
|
Post by Trusty on Apr 4, 2008 6:59:52 GMT -5
You hit the nail on the head when you contrast the Tibetan's struggle against foreign occupation and cultural genocide with actions of criminals and overreactions of police authorities to disorders. The Newark riots also are nothing like the Tibetan protests. Your examples from the US and the events in Tibet are, as you note, "apples and oranges." Red China has no right to suppress Tibet. The United States has a right to govern the United States. This was an answer to roges' statement about student disorder AND Randy Weaver AND Waco. When I first read it, I thought, "Surely, joe isn't telling us that the 51-day siege at Waco, led by the U.S. Attorney General, is a product of "...overreactions of police authorities..." It's like two people looking at a guy that has a stain on his shirt: One says the stain was a result of an accident; the other says the stain was a result of the guy's lifestyle. An immediate misunderstanding is the result of the two people's opinions, and neither opinion removes the stain. --- Also, basic question about whether Tibet is a country or a province: Isn't the Tibetan Olympic team boycotting the Olympics, and aren't only nations allowed to send teams to the Olympics? Thanks.
|
|
|
Post by rogesgallery on Apr 4, 2008 20:42:34 GMT -5
I don't know if I like the role of the truthsayer in this thread but here is the answer to your question Trusty
Tibet denied team at Beijing Games
LAUSANNE, Switzerland (AP) -- The International Olympic Committee has rejected an attempt by Tibet to field its own team at the 2008 Beijing Olympics.
Tibetan supporters stand in front of a banner representing a wall outside the IOC headquarters in Switzerland.
More than 100 Tibet supporters -- including some Buddhist monks -- waved banners and Tibetan flags outside the IOC headquarters Monday, as delegates from the unofficial Tibetan National Olympic Committee met with the organization's officials to discuss the request.
"The IOC is not in a position to accept our application," said Wangpo Tethong, a president of the Tibetan group.
Michel Filliau, a senior IOC official who took part in the meeting, said a rule change in 1996 meant only national committees from countries recognized by the international community can take part in the Olympics.
|
|
|
Post by rogesgallery on Apr 4, 2008 21:26:59 GMT -5
This is an interesting question though since Palestine (1993)—with protest from Israel—has it's own team. Puerto Rico—a commonwealth territory of the US— has had its own team since 1948 as well as the U.S. Virgin Islands in 1967, Guam in 1986, and American Samoa in 1987.
|
|
|
Post by hartlikeawheel on Apr 4, 2008 23:39:37 GMT -5
I like Mike's idea. Is it ever going to be possible to view sports as character-building again?
Is it possible to deal with each other by values other than monetary ones? At present many decisions are based on situational value judgements. With that criteria it appears an impossibility.
So who gets to choose? Those with the biggest piggy banks, if they have the willfulness to use them that way.
What we label sports today doesn't seem to me to be what sound mind in sound body, the Greek ideal, was supposed to be about.
I just can't spend much time watching or even contemplating these super-sized extravaganas.
|
|
|
Post by rogesgallery on Apr 11, 2008 19:52:41 GMT -5
I have heard that this will likely be the last year that the Torch will make it's journey around the world.
It is interesting to watch this phenomenon of public unrest in the democratic countries of the world as population increases. I think it is disturbingly indicative of what may happen to order if this country goes into a depression on the scale of the 1930s. I think the riots in France, Italy, and Venezuela in the past few years are minor in comparison to what would happen in this country. So many people are dependent upon the economy and the basic supply system for the every aspect of their survival. People are so quick to blame the government for any systemic failings.
I'm thinking a years worth of food might be a good idea
|
|
|
Post by michael on Apr 11, 2008 20:48:09 GMT -5
I'm thinking a years worth of food might be a good idea I'm building a wine cellar... gonna stock it 'til I can hardly close the door. A couple dozen cases of cigars, plenty of canned spam. I'll survive. Mike
|
|
|
Post by rogesgallery on Apr 11, 2008 22:37:14 GMT -5
I understand that Hawaii is the spam capitol of the world. Is it popular in Japan? Do they have Spouci Bars.
|
|
|
Post by michael on Apr 12, 2008 0:43:32 GMT -5
I understand that Hawaii is the spam capitol of the world. Is it popular in Japan? Do they have Spouci Bars. Not so, roges. Okinawa is the Spam capital of the world. They also have more people over the age of 100 than anywhere else too! Are these two facts related? Eat Spam, live long? My gut instinct tells me that there is a connection -- so I'm going for it in a big way. But, getting back to your question on the popularity of Spam in Japan... I would say it is not in the top 10. Fish sausage is way ahead of Spam even though to me, they look the same. I don't know what a Spouci Bar is, but we do have Spam sushi, it's called Okinawan Sushi. Mike
|
|
|
Post by michael on Apr 22, 2008 1:06:39 GMT -5
It seems that our interest in the Beijing Olympics’ has moved somewhere south of zero. Why so? Is it not interesting to watch news clips of them playing hide the torch from the demonstrators?
|
|
|
Post by rogesgallery on Apr 22, 2008 1:21:33 GMT -5
Just the mention of Spam sends people running like peasants from a Viking invasion Spamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspam Wonderful spam
|
|
|
Post by michael on Apr 22, 2008 1:43:27 GMT -5
Just the mention of Spam sends people running like peasants from a Viking invasion Spamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspam Wonderful spam Perhaps if the torch bearers would have a can of SPAM fixed to the top of the torch, the demonstrators would leave them alone. Of course, they’d have to avoid running the relay through Okinawa; could turn unruly.
|
|