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Post by gailkate on Mar 30, 2008 13:53:18 GMT -5
The German Chancellor has announced they will boycott this summer's Olympics because of China's brutal crushing of Tibetan protestors. Do you think we should do the same? If not, what?
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Post by slb2 on Mar 30, 2008 14:44:19 GMT -5
This is exactly what my daughter (18 in one week) said she wanted our government to do.
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Post by michael on Mar 30, 2008 16:55:42 GMT -5
I don’t think that boycotting the Olympics is the right thing to do. The world is being manipulated and boycotts are ineffective. If anything, the Olympics should be canceled forever. The Olympics no longer serve as a peaceful unifying event; they’re all about money and politics. I can’t fathom why anyone would want to host the games in the first place.
Mike
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Post by gailkate on Mar 30, 2008 17:56:24 GMT -5
Interesting point, Mike, but were you ever an athlete? I'm not, but I can kind of understand the appeal of setting goals for your personal best. Any competition, like the World Cup or the America's Cup or the Super Bowl, is a big deal. I don't know why anyone would want to host something like that but it's obviously a showcase for the city and big tourist bucks.
I'm just torn about enabling what is a very harsh government. I've heard that the Chinese people think the Tibetans are ungrateful thugs. And PBS had some experts on the other night saying a boycott would lead to terrible consequences for the Tibetans. It's like saying, well, we'd better go to the wife-beater's party because if we don't he'll beat her even more.
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Post by michael on Mar 30, 2008 18:20:42 GMT -5
Hi gk, when I was in my late twenties and early thirties, I participated in several half-marathons, bicycle races and I did two triathlons. I spent a lot of time training for the events and it was always very satisfying when I would cross the finish line. I never placed in the top ten in any of the competitions; but I didn’t mind – it was just for fun and, it was always peaceful.
The need to be number one has always eluded me – thank goodness.
Mike
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Post by joew on Mar 30, 2008 18:20:58 GMT -5
It will probably represent a significant monetary loss for Red China if there is a widespread boycott of the Olympics. Just the sort of thing to teach them a lesson. I'm glad Germany has led the way, and I hope there will be a lot of countries following their example.
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Post by michael on Mar 30, 2008 18:36:44 GMT -5
When the Olympic organization/committee (whatever those people call themselves) awarded the hosting rights to China, that, is when people should have said something. They were the same China then that they are now.
Mike
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Post by joew on Mar 30, 2008 19:00:01 GMT -5
A fair point, Mike. OTOH they weren't cracking down on Tibetan protesters at that point in time.
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Post by slb2 on Mar 31, 2008 0:28:59 GMT -5
gk's comment worries me. I have always felt kinship with Tibetians. That sounds odd. I don't want their life to be worse.
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Post by rogesgallery on Mar 31, 2008 1:23:41 GMT -5
Hmmm Nobody boycotted the US Olympics after the the disastrous government attack at Waco, nor after the shooting of Randy Weavers wife in Idaho. Wasn't there some students killed at Kent State? These were not even attempts at succession. The Tibetan demonstrations are. If you were to add up all of the law enforcement wrongful or questionable death events in the US in the last 5 years I bet it would approach 200. There has been 4 of them right here in little old Spokane in the last 2 years.
Why do you think that governments don't seriously protest China's possession of Tibet? You will see why if you look at any world map ever printed. China and Tibet are the same color. Tibet has always been a territory of China. China just never exercised administrative control over Tibet until it became obvious that they were going to need direct access to a Himalayan glacial water resource. China has 1/4 of the population of the world, and they suffered a horrendous drought and famine in the last century in which millions died.
Doesn't China have 10 times the population of the US—and isn't their prison population less than half that of the US?
I don't much like the fact that humans can't get along without killing each other but if you are going to protest human rights you better look carefully at our own human rights record. Does Iraq ring a bell. Oh yeah but "Since we're there we should stay and finish the job or our servicemen might feel betrayed". How about Nicaragua and Guatamala "The Banana Insurrections"
Public ignorance of our history does not erase it.
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Post by rogesgallery on Mar 31, 2008 1:56:06 GMT -5
Victims of the 1967 Newark Riot
Over the course of five days of rioting in Newark from July 13-July 17, 26 people were killed--all but two were African American. The two white fatalities included a police detective, who was reportedly shot by a sniper, and a fireman, killed by gunfire while responding to an alarm on Central Avenue. Most of those killed during the riot were shot by police or National Guard troops, some while allegedly looting or roaming the streets after curfew. Several people, like Eloise Spellman, a mother of 11 children, and Elizabeth Artis, a 68 year-old woman, were fatally wounded in their own homes by a fusillade of National Guard/Police bullets aimed at suspected snipers. The dead ranged in age from Eddie Moss, only 10 years old, who was shot by National Guardsmen while riding in a car with his parents, to Isaac Harrison, 73, who was shot by police while walking to his apartment. Numerous others, including Joey Bass, age 12, were wounded. Injury estimates range from 725 people (according to a New Jersey state police report), to 1020 reported by the director of Newark City Hospital. Many lives, such as those of Eloise Spellman's children, were irrevocably shattered.
JAMES SANDERS, Died 7/14/67 at 4:10am of gunshot wounds from police. As sixteen year- old black youth, Sanders lived at 52 Beacon St and James worked as a food distributor at a welfare center. According to police records, James was shot while looting at Springfield Avenue and Jones St. He may have been the youth that the Bergen Record of July 14 reported killed by two shots in the chest. According to the Newark News, Sanders was killed by two Newark patrolmen as he ran with liquor bottles: through a fence opposite 43 Jones St. That afternoon he had stopped to see a friend at 298 Bergen, the same address where Rebecca Brown would die two evenings later. Sanders’ father, who said James had never been in trouble before, found his son in the City Morgue eight days after he was killed:
TEDOCK BELL, Died 7/14/67 at 4:30am of gunshot wounds. Bell, a twenty eight year old black male, native of North Carolina, husband, and father of four, who lived at 411 Bergen Street, was shot in the chest by police at the corner of Magnolia and Bergen Streets, where a bar in which he was employed had been broken into. In addition to bartending, Bell was employed as a full-time machinist and had achieved notoriety as a star basketball player in high school. Bell reportedly told his companions not to run away from the police because “they weren’t doing anything wrong”. As others ran for safety Bell stayed put. Then, a single officer approached , at which point Bell ran. The officer chased and fired three times, striking Bell in the chest from a distance of 5-10 yards. He continued to flee but fell at the corner of Magnolia and Bergen St. He was taken to the hospital by the brother of a neighbor, but was pronounced dead on arrival.
MARY HELEN CAMPBELL, Died 7/14/67 at 5:30 am in a car at the corner of High and Spruce Streets. A thirty-one year old black woman who lived at 380 Hawthorne, there is not much additional information about Ms. Campbell. The police report states that she was sitting in a stationary car when it was struck by a fire engine, while the Governor’s Select Commission Report states her car struck the fire engine which resulted in her death. Other accounts claim that she was run over by a police car or fire truck around the same time on 17th Avenue.
JESSIE MAE JONES, Died 7/14/67 of gunshot wounds at her home on 255 Fairmount Avenue around 7am. Mrs. Jones, a thirty-one-year-old mother of seven children, employed at Hilltop Nursing Home was sitting on her porch early Friday morning when she was shot by Eybind Chandler, a thirty-three-year-old black man with a record of trouble with the police. Chandler had allegedly been throwing bottles at cars when a white motorist stepped out of his car to confront him. Chandler then reached for a gun and began chasing the motorist. He fired a shot, which missed and struck Mrs. Jones in the back of her head. Chandler was indicted for homicide in this case, but other witnesses reported that Mrs. Jones had been killed by the white motorist. Mrs. Jones and her daughter Dolores had been unable to sleep during the night and had been sitting on the porch observing the fires and hearing the gunshots around them until dawn.
RUFUS COUNCIL, Died 7/14/67 at 5:30pm of a gunshot wound to the head while standing outside Roz’s restaurant, 69 South Orange Ave near Wickliffe St. Council, a 32 year old black man and itinerant laborer from North Carolina, left his wife and two teenage children behind in the South. In Newark, he held a series of various temporary jobs, and was last employed with a moving company. After finishing his dinner at Roz’s barbecue, Council stepped out on the street and joined a crowd observing police and National Guard troops firing into the nearby Scudder Homes. As he stood outside on the corner, a caravan of police cars came up the street with officers reportedly firing in the air. Council moved back toward the restaurant and stood in the doorway when a police car pulled up to the curb. According to eyewitness accounts, an officer exited from the back seat of the car and pointed his service revolver at Council. Council put his hands up and shook his head, begging the police officer not to shoot, but was shot in the left side of his forehead. He died shortly thereafter. Hayden speculates that Council was killed by police in revenge for the earlier shooting of Detective Fred Toto, which occurred near Scudder Homes.
OSCAR (CURTIS) HILL, Died 7/14/67 around 6:30 pm of a gunshot wound to the chest on or around Springfield Ave. up the hill from Scudder Homes. Mr. Hill, a 50 year-old black man, worked at Spring Mountain Tavern on Bell and Springfield, was a member of the American Legion and Bartenders Union. He was last seen alive when he left work, wearing his American Legion jacket, about 5 P.M. on Friday the 14th. His body was identified exactly one week later in the morgue by his wife, from whom he had been separated for some time.
ROBERT LEE MARTIN. Died 7/14/67 at 7pm. of police inflicted gunshot wounds near the corner of Broome and Mercer. A twenty-two year old black man, Martin worked nights for a maintenance company. He had come North the previous year from Greenwood, Mississippi, with his parents, and six brothers and sisters. According to the Governor’s Commision Report, Martin went out with his brother-in-law early Friday evening to see what was going on around the corner of Mercer and Springfield. A while later, police began firing up the street. Martin thought they were firing in the air. He was subsequently hit in the face by a bullet. His family reports that money was taken from his body.
CORNELIUS MURRAY, Died 7/14/67 around 7pm of gunshot wounds by police. A twenty-eight year old black male, husband and father of three who lived at 16 Wainwright St., Murray worked for a local cable company. Murray was shot and killed by Newark police while standing with relatives near the R & R bar on Jones and Springfield Avenue. According to eyewitness accounts, police were shooting all over the area. The circumstances of his death are unclear. According to the July 24th issue of the Washington Post, the police who killed Murray "suddenly came over the rooftops spraying the street below with bullets." When Murray first was shot witnesses reported a wound in the back. Later his father said that at the hospital he saw a gash across the top of Murray's head and hole in his head. There were $126 and a ring missing from Murray's body.
FRED TOTO, Died 7/14/67 at 7:30 p.m., at the corner of Broome and Mercer Streets, from a .22 caliber bullet wound to the chest. A thirty three year white police detective, Toto was on duty for twenty-four continuous hours, rested briefly and then went back to work Friday afternoon. Patrolman Paul Buttross was standing next to Toto when, according to Buttros, ‘we heard some shots from an apartment house across the street. We all ducked low but Fred stood up. I heard a shot, got some flying glass in my face and when I turned around, Fred was down.”
ISAAC HARRISON, Died 7/14/67 around 8pm of gunshot wounds by police as he was walking from his car to his apartment at Scudder Homes Public Housing Project. Harrison, a 74 year old black man, originally from Jamaica, was standing near his sons Virgil, Bussy, and Horace, all in their thirties, when police began firing at Scudder Homes. Harrison’s son Virgil was hit in the arm and then hit struck in the knee by bullets as he tried to help his father get to safety. Isaac was struck in the chest and abdomen and died on the scene. Eyewitnesses reported that police continued to fire at the brick building for almost ten minutes. They expressed shock and disbelief that the police were firing live ammunition at the apartment complex. Police reported that they were returning fire from an alleged sniper on the roof of the buildings, but they shot people standing at the ground level. Another police account, included in the Kerner Commission report states that police were pursuing looters who cut in front of a group of spectators. This information is not confirmed by other sources.
EDDIE MOSS, Died, 7/14/67 at 8:30 p.m.,of a bullet wound to the head. The exact location of his death is uncertain. Eddie, who was ten years old at the time of his death, was a passenger carrying several members of his family en route to the White Castle for dinner early Friday evening. His father, who was driving, saw barricades on Elizabeth Avenue near the White Castle, and slowed to a halt, but as he did so, National Guardsmen opened fire. Mr. Moss drove around the barricades and stopped to let Eddie's uncle jump out of the car to wave down the Guardsmen. Then with Eddie's uncle back in the car, they drove away to escape further gunfire. When they returned to their neighborhood, they found that their car had been riddled with bullets and Eddie lay fatally wounded in the head with blood spilled across the back seat. Police first reported that Eddie was killed by sniper fire, but later said an investigation was pending.
LEROY BOYD, Died 7/14/67 around 10:30pm. at Belmont and Avon Avenue of uncertain causes. A thirty seven year old black man, and native of Virginia, lived at 322 Belmont Ave and worked at a paper company in Elizabeth. Boyd was allegedly apprehended while looting a pharmacy on Belmont Avenue. The suspects were reportedly lined up against the building, but a bystander, Alfred Swift intervened and began insulting the police officers. Police reports indicate that during the altercation with Swift, one of the officer’s guns accidentally discharged fatally wounding Leroy Boyd. Yet there are several alternative explanations for Boyd’s death. Boyd’s son recalls hearing Swift fire a shot at one of the officers present at the drug store, who happened to be black. Swift’s bullet supposedly missed its intended target and hit Boyd. A funeral home director, however, reported finding six .38 caliber bullets in Boyd’s body, the same caliber bullets used by police. The county medical examiner ruled Boyd’s death a result of blunt trauma. Boyd died on the sidewalk, Belmont and Avon.
RICHARD TALIAFERRO, Died 7/14/67 at 11:15pm of gunshot wounds inflicted by police and state troopers near his home at 100 11th Avenue. Taliaferro, a 25 year old black man, was wounded by police shotgun blasts to his back while running down South 8th Street about a hundred feet from a liquor store which was looted: Observers say he was "finished off" by troopers in the street. A grand jury report states after being ordered to halt by police, Taliaferro and companions “fired hand weapons at them” to which police responded with their own fire. No such hand weapons were actually found at the scene. Taliaferro was due to be inducted into the army on July 21.
ALBERT MERSIER, JR., Died 7/14/67 at 11:55pm of gunshot wounds from a police revolver. Mersier, a twenty year old black male, worked as a laborer and lived with his parents and a younger sister at 117 Oliver Street. Police say they shot and killed Mersier late Friday afternoon near 368 Mulberry Street as he was attempting to load a vacuum cleaner, allegedly looted from a nearby burned-out appliance store, into his car. When he saw the police, he attempted to flee. Police claim that Mersier refused orders to halt.
MICHAEL PUGH, Shot 7/15/67 at 12:50am by national Guardsmen at his home located at 340 Fifteenth Ave. A 12 year old black youth, Michael was a sixth grade student who was planning to begin working in the summer jobs program the next day. About midnight on Sunday, Michael's mother sent him our with the garbage. The young man that Michael was with apparently said something derogatory to the National Guardsmen who were on the corner. In response, soldiers opened fire and killed Michael. He died around l A.M on. Monday, July 16.
WILLIAM FURR, Died 7/15/67 at 2:55 p.m. of gunshot wounds administered by police. A.twenty-four year-old African American male, Furr lived with his father 2 Hollywood Avenue in Montclair. He had recently lost his job at Fisher’s Bakery on Belmont Ave. a job he had held for five years. Several witnesses, including Life reporters, observed Newark police shoot Mr. Furr Saturday afternoon on Avon Avenue midway between Badger and Livingston. Mr. Furr was observed carrying beer from Mack Liquors, which had been almost completely looted prior to Saturday. Eyewitnesses say that police ordered Furr to halt then gave chase and fired their weapons. Two shots from a policeman’s shotgun hit Mr. Furr and a third seriously wounded Joey Bass, a small boy, a bystander. For pictures of the police pursuit, captured by a Life Magazine photographer, click here.
REBECCA BROWN, Died 7/15/67 at 6:30 pm at her home on 293 Bergen Street. Mrs. Brown, a twenty nine year old black woman, native of Florida, wife, and mother of four children, and nurse’s aide at Orange Memorial Hospital, was killed when State Police and National Guardsmen fired a volley of shots into her apartment and surrounding buildings She was shot in the abdomen trying to pull her two year old daughter, Delano, to safety. Police reports claim that a “sniper” may have shot her, although several eyewitness accounts place Guardsmen and State Police at the scene. According to Mrs Brown’s husband, who arrived from work after his wife was shot, police tried to prevent him from seeing her body.
ELOISE SPELLMAN, Died 7/15/67 around 7:30pm of gunshot wounds from police at her home at 322 Hunterdon Avenue, apt. 10E. Mrs. Spellman, a 41 year old mother of eleven children whose husband had died several years previously, was a resident of the Hayes Homes Public Housing Project. Spellman was shot in the neck by gunfire as she peeked through her window. Her daughter caught her as she fell, got her brothers and neighbors, then waited forty-five minutes for an ambulance. The family learned late Sunday morning that their mother was dead. Hers was one of several apartments on the side of Hayes Homes facing the 16th Avenue firehouse which were hit by gunfire as police, state troopers and guardsmen they strafed suspected snipers. Mrs. Spellman lived on the tenth floor of a thirteen-story building; bullet marks were visible on Hayes windows from the sixth floor up.
HATTIE GAINER, Died 7/15 around 8pm of gunshot wounds. Mrs. Gainer, a fifty-three year old African American woman lived at 302 Hunterdon Street. On Saturday evening, after shooting several rounds of fire into nearby Hayes Homes, where suspected snipers were holed up, state troopers moved toward toward Hunterdon Street where further incidents of sniping were reported. They then began shooting at resident’s houses. Mrs. Gainer was struck in the chest by a bullet that came through the window of her second floor apartment. She died in the presence of three grandchildren, who ranged in age from three to seven years old. Her daughter recalled police saying; "We made a mistake. We’re killing innocent people”, as Mrs. Gainer lay on the floor of her house. Mrs. Gainer had lived in the community for twenty years.
MICHAEL MORAN, Died 7/15/67 of gunshot wounds from suspected snipers at the scene of a fire at Central and South 7th. Street. A 41 year old white firefighter, Moran lived at 66 Eastern Parkway. A few minutes after 10 p.m. Saturday, Moran responded to a fire alarm on Central Avenue, a short distance from the station at Central and Ninth. It turned out, according to a signed personal statement of Fire Director John Caulfield, published in the July 17 Star-Ledger, that there was no fire visible at the site of the alarm. Caulfield with Moran decided to enter the building. Firemen broke open the second floor window. Caulfield told the Star-Ledger, “the sniper opened fire”. …There were in fact some reporters at the scene of the Moran shooting who felt the shots were coming from police. Some newspapers, such as the Washington Post, decided to leave unanswered the question of who killed the fire captain.
RAYMOND HAWK, Died 7/15/67 at 10:06 pm of gunshot wounds by police near 949 Freylinghuysen Avenue in the area of Dayton Street. Hawk, a twenty-four year old black male, husband and father, lived at 143 Spruce St. . Hawk was by himself in the deserted street when police drove up and firing shots down the alley at supposed looters. He was shot dead in the street as he was trying to get to his car.
ROSE LEE ABRAHAM, age 45, Died 7/15/67 as a result of injuries sustained on 7/14/67 around 11:45pm . Mrs. Abraham, an African American mother of six children, was shot by police outside her home on 42 Blum St. near Springfield Ave. Awakened by noise outside, she went onto her porch searching for her children when police fired into a crowd gathered nearby. Mrs. Abraham was shot in the hip and stomach, and was taken to Newark City Hospital by her husband. After waiting six hours to be operated on, Mrs. Abraham died of her wounds some 24 hours later. She was survived by her husband Moise Sr.
ELIZABETH ARTIS, Died 7/16/67 at 4:35 am at her home on 38 Prince St. A sixty-eight year old black woman, Ms. Artis, who had been suffering from a heart condition for four years became frightened by the sound of heavy gunfire in the neighborhood and suffered a fatal heart attack.
VICTOR LOUIS SMITH, Died 7/16/67 around 8:25am of a reported drug overdose. A twenty two year-old resident of 32 Barclay St, Smith was found dead in a hallway at 26 Edmond Place. Police report observing needle marks on his arms.
JAMES RUTLEDGE, Died 7/16/67 at 5:15pm of a gunshot wound from a state trooper’s revolver. A nineteen year-old black man, Rutledge lived at 171 Lehigh Avenue and held a variety of odd jobs. He was inside the boarded-up Joe-Rae Tavern on at the corner of Bergen Ave. and Custer St. Sunday afternoon when State Troopers and police broke in. James gave himself up, but was shot point-blank by a trooper. Photographs show that James was hit by about thirty-nine bullets in the chest alone, as well as numerous .38 caliber shells and shotgun blasts to his entire body. No one was held criminally responsible for his death.
RAYMOND GILMER, Died 7/18 around 1am of a bullet wound to the back of the head. Gilmer, a 20 year-old black male, with a juvenile criminal record, was living temporarily with his wife and four children at his mother's house on Bergen Street. At the time, he was employed employed at State Produce loading potato sacks. For reasons that are unknown, police were pursuing Gilmer when he parked his car near Clinton and Jelliff and ran across the street toward an alley. The police were observed to pull up and fire several shots striking Gilmer in the back. Officers then proceeded to search his car. Witnesses stated that nothing was discovered. In the search. By contrast, police claimed that Gilmer had shot at them, and claimed to have found a.38 caliber handgun along with a knife, stolen clothes, and binoculars in Gilmer’s car.
Sh**t happens and the moral high ground is yet to be conquered.
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Post by michael on Mar 31, 2008 6:06:16 GMT -5
What I'm thinking is... nobody owns the North Pole (I think) and at the rate things are going, it won't be long before we can hold the Summer Olympics there. It'll be a politically neutral zone where the whole world can chip in to develop it for track & field, swimming, horse shoes and what ever else they do at the Summer Olympics. Every four years, serious athletes can pay their own way, hang out together, compete, get drunk, have sex... all the stuff that athletes like to do, and then when it's over, one of them can post a blog about who won what.
Let the games begin in a political and monetary free environment.
Mike
P.S. Let's see how serious the serious athletes are when there is no money involved.
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Post by slb2 on Mar 31, 2008 8:32:01 GMT -5
Roges, I thank you and exalt you for holding a mirror up to our faces. Public ignorance of our history does not erase it. Yes, 100%. It will take some time, but I am going to read every name you posted along with their short bio and pray and think of ways to improve our world and then take action, the last action being the hardest. ![:(](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/sad.png)
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Post by joew on Mar 31, 2008 10:58:38 GMT -5
… Why do you think that governments don't seriously protest China's possession of Tibet? You will see why if you look at any world map ever printed. China and Tibet are the same color. Tibet has always been a territory of China. China just never exercised administrative control over Tibet until it became obvious that they were going to need direct access to a Himalayan glacial water resource. False. From the 1974 Encyclopædia Britannica vol. IX (Micropædia) p.995— // Tibet, history of 18:372 Home of a unique Central Asian Buddhist culture, Tibet has a history going back nearly 1,500 years. The text article traces the development of Tibet in the late 6th century from an area ruled by several loose tribal confederations into a powerful centralized Buddhist kingdom. With ther disintegration of the kingdom in the 9th century, Tibetan generals and chieftans established themselves in separate territories. The Mongol conquest of the country in 1247 led to the installation of a religious leader, the Saksya Lama, as the viceroy of Tibet. In 1358 leaders of the Phag-mo-gru monastery threw off Mongol power and asserted their own hold over Tibet. But the Dge-lugs-pa (Yellow Hat) order, a reform Buddhist group, rapidly gained power in the early 15th century; in 1578 the leader of this order was given the title Dalai Lama by the great Mongol leader Altan Khan. With the help of the Mongols, the Dge-lugs-pa order became the supreme rulers of Tibet. In the early 18th century the Chinese invaded Tibet, ending Mongol influence over the country and placing the Dalai Lama under their control. After the republican revolution of 1911 in China, Tibet, with British aid, declared its independence. The People's Republic of China reconquered Tibet and a treaty was signed in 1951 that undermined the authority of the Dalai Lamaa. After a popular uprising in the country in 1959, steps were taken to integrate Tibet more strongly than before into China.// You hit the nail on the head when you contrast the Tibetan's struggle against foreign occupation and cultural genocide with actions of criminals and overreactions of police authorities to disorders. The Newark riots also are nothing like the Tibetan protests. Your examples from the US and the events in Tibet are, as you note, "apples and oranges." Red China has no right to suppress Tibet. The United States has a right to govern the United States.Nor does misstating it help our understanding of current events.
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Post by slb2 on Mar 31, 2008 12:16:13 GMT -5
To me, it's all the same. Suppressing by violence in the name of sovereignty or in the name of bullying or whatever name, it's all the same. It's morally corrupt.
The United States has a right to govern the United States. But not by killing its citizens. I understand your points, joew, and find myself warmed by your accuracy. But Roges only misspoke, imo, in this case, to say that Tibet has always been a territory of China. Even I knew that wasn't correct, but I didn't see how the slip-up mitigated his argument/position.
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I also find myself in opposition to Mike's jocular comments about Olympic atheletes. Many of them are NOT professionals, nor do they yet have that mindset. (I think some of the team sports might be professionals, I don't know.) I might or might not agree with the boycott, but I think it's particularly devastating to the atheletes.
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Post by doctork on Mar 31, 2008 12:40:27 GMT -5
I think the crux of the decision lies in whether the Olympics are regarded as a sporting event (athletic achievement) or a political event (a country winning the honor of hosting the Olympics is a political recognition).
The vast majority of Olympic contestants are amateur athletes (by strict definition I think all of them are), who train for years, largely at their own expense. Very few progress to a career in athletics, so it truly is a love of sport for them.
OTOH, the politics can't be ignored. China is presenting itself as a responsible member of the global community by hosting the 2009 Olympics. Their governmental oppression of Tibet is not consistent with that image.
Maybe jawboning about it will attain some loosening of the stranglehold on Tibet. Has the Dalai Lama spoken out on his opinion? I don't know what we should do about the 2008 Olympics. We should always speak out against oppression, here and abroad.
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Post by michael on Mar 31, 2008 17:09:06 GMT -5
It is my understanding that men are not allowed to participate in the Olympic synchronized swimming competition. What’s up with that? Political?
Can you imagine the heartbreak and anguish this must cause male synchronized swimmers around the world?
If it’s not open to everyone than it shouldn’t be open to anyone!
Cancel the Olympics!
Mike A frustrated male synchronized swimmer
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Post by gailkate on Mar 31, 2008 18:52:01 GMT -5
The Wiki summary on Tibet differs a bit from Britannica (and I know, its credibility isn't as high, but it's a good starting place). Note the sentences I've bolded. Many parts of the region were united in the seventh century by King Songtsän Gampo. In 1751, the Qing dynasty, which ruled China from 1644 to 1912, established the Dalai Lama as both the spiritual leader and political leader of Tibet who led a government (Kashag) with four Kalöns in it.[2] Between the 17th century and 1951, the Dalai Lama and his regents were the predominant political power administering religious and administrative authority[3] over large parts of Tibet from the traditional capital Lhasa.
Tibet proclaimed its independence from China in 1911 on the eve of the fall of the Qing dynasty and it's subsequent internal turmoil, while China never renounced its claim of sovereignty to Tibet.[citation needed] No country formally recognized Tibet as an independent country from 1912 to 1951. Tibet remained a defacto independent state until shortly after the conclusion of the Chinese civil war, when on October 1, 1949, the People's Republic of China was formally proclaimed in Beijing and the following year launched an armed invasion of Tibet.[4] The Chinese army of 40,000 men routed the unprepared defending Tibetan army of only 5,000 near the city of Chamdo. The defeat subsequently led to he signing of the Seventeen point agreement by the Tibetan Government. Currently every country in the world recognizes China's sovereignty over Tibet.But whether it's part of their country or not, their beating and killing of protestors shouldn't be condoned. If we'd been hosting Olympics when the Feds rushed the Davidians, people might well have thought they should boycott. Even that - a horrendous failure in judgment IMHO - wasn't quite the same. We didn't turn armed troops on unarmed protestors. It was a stand-off with armed men shooting (and killing) federal officers. It's hard to argue these things, but I do think the Chinese record is different from ours. Police dogs and baton-wielding cops against civil rights demonstrators, the brutality used against anti-war demonstrators and anyone who got in the way, the horrible toll on bystanders in the race riots - it's all shameful. But this is intentionally and ruthlessly attacking innocent protestors. But if we made it worse for them, our moral superiority would be small comfort. I'm hoping that there's some powerful pressure being put on the Chinese. In the meantime, it turns out only Merkel is boycotting the opening ceremonies. You can google all kinds of stories, here's one. www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/sfgate/detail?blogid=15&entry_id=25310
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Post by rogesgallery on Mar 31, 2008 19:43:55 GMT -5
Joe your post only reinforces my statements. Against all attempts to separate Tibet from China it still remains Chinese. Is not Mongolia a province of China? Did not the Mongols rule all but the southern portions of China? The supreme leaders of Tibet in the 13th to 16th century were puppets for the Mongol Empire. Altan Kahn, if I remember my Mongol history, was the George Bush's of the Mongol Empire. His failed, desperate conquests and poor financial management precipitated the fall of the Empire. Prior Mongol rulers had kept a tight reign on the wealthy and heavily subsidized small business. Commerce between the Occident and the Orient thrived and there was vigorous trade all the way to Europe.
I can only assume that you believe Tibet's short lived independence at the beginning of the 20th century was justified because it was aided by British Imperialism. Britain took advantage of the internal strife in China because it was already exercising bloody Imperial control over Afghanistan and India. It was a land grab, and to say that Tibet was actually independent, and has a right to independence in the present on the basis of that short period, is like saying that the Nez Perce have a right to the the independent state of Nimi'ipuu in southern Idaho and and the Columbia Plateau.
The Nez Perce were an independent people with an oral history dating back 10,000 years. They had a government and commerce all the way to the west coast and east to the Dakotas. They were invaded and eventually conquered when Chief Joseph surrendered in 1877. There are important parallels between the two. The Nez Perce land included the Salmon, Snake, Columbia, and Clearwater Rivers, all of which have multiple dams on them now. Two of those rivers are still important agricultural waterways as they were for the Nez Perce the San Poil(Spokane), Colville, Chinook and numerous coastal tribes. This is quite similar to the importance of Tibet's water resource to China. The difference is that the Nez Perce were annihilated, whittled down to a few hundred and then moved off their land to a concentration camp where their numbers stagnated from the high rate of infant mortality brought on by lack of food and the ability to provide traditional nutrition and health care. Not to mention the depression caused by the "Cultural genocide".
If you can find me a map that shows Tibet as anything more than a province of China it will be an obscure one printed during those years of British Imperialism.
The recent Tibetan riots are not different than the Newark riots in that they are both part of a fight for cultural equality and identity. If you don't want to read the posted obituaries on the Newark riots, that is fine with me, but don't call the dead and wounded criminals when they weren't.
The immigration of Chinese in the mid 1800s, the Irish in the early 1900s, and now the Mexicans and South Americans are examples of cultural prejudice in our country. We are still trying to sort out the animosity behind the cultural genocide of slavery. We are also trying to force cultural change on the people of Iraq. When we do it we are trying to help, but when anyone else does it they are evil? Not so Joe. Evil is evil whether it comes in the trunk of a car or in the belly of a bomber.
I think you might be forgetting that in this country it is against the law to use military force against the civilian population, which is what happened at Waco. It is impossible to sort out exactly what transpired there and Koresh was a religious fanatic but the fact is that a Delta Force team and Blackhawk helicopters from the Texas Nat. Guard were involved. You might also have forgotten that 14 year old Sammy Weaver was shot in the back while running from the FBI snipers who had as yet not announced themselves as law enforcement. The FBi agents without announcing their presence had just shot his dog and a firefight broke out He was shot and killed while retreating. Vicky Weaver was unarmed and shot while holding her 10 month old child. Kevin Harris and Randy were also wounded. The charge was possessing a sawed off shotgun without paying the $200 filling fee. What I'm getting at is that things seem to get out of control with our government as well.
You can spin the issue of cultural integration but you can not deny that Chinese and Tibetan history are deeply intertwined. Nor can you deny that Tibet is an extremely strategic piece of ground for China. China is not going to give up any strategic ground and pushing the issue may only eventually deny poor kids in this country access to cheap sneakers.
As I said above, I don't like the idea that humans are poor humanitarians, but I will not self righteously ignore the inhumane actions of my own people. The question is do we have the moral authority to try and influence the situation in Tibet. I don't think we do. Maybe we should ask ourselves "What would Norway do".
Gail? I agree that The Waco debacle is a poor parallel to Tibet but it does illustrate how situations can get out of control. I think that likely happens in China too. I am impressed with the changes and the effort the new government in China has made, considering the enormity of the obstacles they have to deal with.
Thanks for the post. I didn't have time to do a bunch of research so this is from memory so if it is faulty you're welcome to call my wiki.
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Post by rogesgallery on Mar 31, 2008 20:00:50 GMT -5
It is my understanding that men are not allowed to participate in the Olympic synchronized swimming competition. What’s up with that? Political? Can you imagine the heartbreak and anguish this must cause male synchronized swimmers around the world? If it’s not open to everyone than it shouldn’t be open to anyone! Cancel the Olympics! Mike A frustrated male synchronized swimmer LOLOLOL Mike I never would have guessed...Could you post some pics of your Sync Team? Please.
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Post by ozski on Mar 31, 2008 20:02:40 GMT -5
Mike, My heart breaks for your plight. Take heart in knowing you are NOT ALONE, there are others bravely blazing the trail for frustrated MSS such as yourself. Your #1 fan (think MISERY) in synchronization, Oz www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvJ9SdlETaw
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Post by rogesgallery on Mar 31, 2008 21:00:32 GMT -5
To me, it's all the same. Suppressing by violence in the name of sovereignty or in the name of bullying or whatever name, it's all the same. It's morally corrupt. I agree that it is barbarous behavior, the question is do we have the moral right to act in protest or should that be left to the UN... or the Norwegians The United States has a right to govern the United States. But not by killing its citizens. I understand your points, joew, and find myself warmed by your accuracy. But Roges only misspoke, NNNo I did not misspeak on the issue of China's sovereignty over Tibet. The Britannica reference is incomplete, poorly worded and easily misconstrued to indicate that Tibet was independent prior to the Mongol invasion. Also it assumes that China had somehow recognized Tibet's claim of independence. imo, in this case, to say that Tibet has always been a territory of China. Even I knew that wasn't correct, but I didn't see how the slip-up mitigated his argument/position. ------------------------------------------------------ I also find myself in opposition to Mike's jocular comments about Olympic atheletes. Many of them are NOT professionals, nor do they yet have that mindset. (I think some of the team sports might be professionals, I don't know.) I might or might not agree with the boycott, but I think it's particularly devastating to the atheletes. Yikes It's snowing again! Maybe we will host the first Ice Age Olympics... That is if the they aren't boycotted for the l oppression of the local Insect and Avian population
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Post by joew on Mar 31, 2008 21:20:37 GMT -5
roges —
The Tibetans know that they are not Chinese, and the Chinese know that the Tibetans are not Chinese.
Any evil we have done to the indigenous peoples of this land does not make Tibet a part of China, nor does any denunciation of what we have done constitute a justification of what Red China is doing. Indeed, anyone who would justify China's dealings with Tibet has no moral standing to complain of what happened to the Nez Perce or any other of the North American aborigines. You are trying to have it both ways, and it won't work, even if you want to believe that the United States is the embodiment of all that is evil and the Communists are the embodiment of all that it is good.
And I will have nothing further to say about the Newark riot deaths (and I have read your accounts) because the situations are so different as to render Newark nothing but a red herring in this discussion.
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Post by rogesgallery on Mar 31, 2008 21:27:44 GMT -5
It will probably represent a significant monetary loss for Red China if there is a widespread boycott of the Olympics. Just the sort of thing to teach them a lesson. I'm glad Germany has led the way, and I hope there will be a lot of countries following their example. Joe? No offense but you are going to have to change your prejudicial rhetoric> This is no longer the old red Chinese government. The Party changed Considerably in 2003 between the 16th and 17th party congress. You haven't noticed that this is a much more progressive government? Would you have them stop and have democratic elections tomorrow...!.4 billion opinions would be impossible to sort out. Reasonable people don't expect to change the world in 4 years. China works on a 50 year plan that is why Taiwan has not been bombed to rubble. Unlike other places in the world.
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Post by joew on Mar 31, 2008 21:43:10 GMT -5
It will probably represent a significant monetary loss for Red China if there is a widespread boycott of the Olympics. Just the sort of thing to teach them a lesson. I'm glad Germany has led the way, and I hope there will be a lot of countries following their example. Joe? No offense but you are going to have to change your prejudicial rhetoric> This is no longer the old red Chinese government. The Party changed Considerably in 2003 between the 16th and 17th party congress. You haven't noticed that this is a much more progressive government? Would you have them stop and have democratic elections tomorrow...!.4 billion opinions would be impossible to sort out. Reasonable people don't expect to change the world in 4 years. China works on a 50 year plan that is why Taiwan has not been bombed to rubble. Unlike other places in the world. I'm talking about Tibet. Elections in China, or whatever else "the [Communist] Party" magnanimously decides to do for the Chinese are beside the point. Taiwan has not been bombed to rubble because when the Reds were putting together their 50-year plan (or whenever they made their decision) it was clear to them that we would not let them get away with it. If we had made the same mistake with respect to Taiwan as we had with respect to Korea (explicitly leaving them outside the perimeter we would defend) the invasion would have happened decades ago.
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Post by joew on Mar 31, 2008 21:47:41 GMT -5
… The Party changed Considerably in 2003 between the 16th and 17th party congress. You haven't noticed that this is a much more progressive government? … I haven't noticed any mitigation toward Tibet. The "new" Party is no better than the "old" party in that regard. Unless you want to assert that the "old" party would have been even more brutal.
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Post by joew on Mar 31, 2008 21:55:17 GMT -5
… Would you have them stop and have democratic elections tomorrow...!.4 billion opinions would be impossible to sort out. … As I noted above, this has nothing to do with Tibet, but it is, nevertheless, stuff and nonsense. You sort out 1.4 billion opinions the same way you sort out any other number. You have people in the various localities count ballots and report the totals to the central authority holding the election. I am confident that they have been holding one-party elections for all sorts of offices from local up to the "People's" Congress for decades. All that is needed is to allow non-communists to be candidates.
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Post by rogesgallery on Mar 31, 2008 22:26:24 GMT -5
roges — The Tibetans know that they are not Chinese, and the Chinese know that the Tibetans are not Chinese. Any evil we have done to the indigenous peoples of this land does not make Tibet a part of China, nor does any denunciation of what we have done constitute a justification of what Red China is doing. Indeed, anyone who would justify China's dealings with Tibet has no moral standing to complain of what happened to the Nez Perce or any other of the North American aborigines. You are trying to have it both ways, and it won't work, even if you want to believe that the United States is the embodiment of all that is evil and the Communists are the embodiment of all that it is good. The Chinese and the rest of the world know that Tibet is Chinese so if you refuse to research any further than a 1974 Britannica we'll have to disagree on that point. I researched it 4 years ago and I don't need to do it again. I have never said that I think that any one is good or evil. My opinion is that humans are barbarous creatures and governments only consolidate that barbarism, allowing the populace a measure of absolution—kind of like a confession. I am just relating the facts without personal prejudice. Heres another one. If China was bent on world domination why did they decline when offered the lush agricultural country of Vietnam in Yalta after WWII and then turn around and reabsorb the barren landscape of Tibet? I understand your patriotism and it is admirable. We are on the precipice of world change here. Economic and political Dynamics are changing and if we continue to treat the rest of the world as adversary's the country will wither. Right now our economy floats on a sea of diesel but our country doesn't so we have a choice. We can treat the nations that have the resources with respect for the difficulties they face in a changing world or we can revert to imperialism and try to conquer them before our weapons run dry. I prefer the former because the latter would require nukes. But the former requires a giant step down in humility— it would require that we admit our historic faults.
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Post by michael on Mar 31, 2008 22:59:00 GMT -5
Should the Olympics be allowed to be a political football; not just this time but every time?
If the answer is yes, then I seriously say scrap the games. If the answer is no, then lets keep politics and sports separate. Solve political problems in the political arenas and play sports games in sports arenas.
As for China, well, we embraced them and turned our backs on Taiwan back in the ‘70s. And, I guess we really love those Chinese guys too, because almost everything I own is made there. Like this computer keyboard that I'm pecking on right now.
If you feel strongly about doing something -- boycott Chinese goods... forever, if you can.
Mike
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Post by rogesgallery on Mar 31, 2008 23:07:10 GMT -5
… Would you have them stop and have democratic elections tomorrow...!.4 billion opinions would be impossible to sort out. … As I noted above, this has nothing to do with Tibet, but it is, nevertheless, stuff and nonsense. You sort out 1.4 billion opinions the same way you sort out any other number. You have people in the various localities count ballots and report the totals to the central authority holding the election. I am confident that they have been holding one-party elections for all sorts of offices from local up to the "People's" Congress for decades. All that is needed is to allow non-communists to be candidates. The problem with the web is I'm afraid that you might Think I'm angry from my replies. Not so Joe If your not either we will continue. 1. The sudden change to democracy in Iraq has not been that much of a success because of the demograpics. 2. You really don't think there would be a problem holding democratic elections in China? Yikes! 3. I still hold that Tibet is Chinese and that is the opinion of our government. Reabsorbed or not Tibet is now a territory of China and just as a State in this country can not vote itself out of the Union neither can Tibet. Civil unrest will not be tolerated there any more than it will be tolerated here. Dr K asked if the Dali Lhama had made a statement: Dalai Lama makes fresh appeal for Beijing talksPosted Fri Mar 28, 2008 10:34pm AEDT The Dalai Lama has appealed to China to enter into "meaningful dialogue" over the crisis in Tibet, and asserted he did not want to undermine the Beijing Olympics and was not seeking independence. In an open letter to his "Chinese brothers and sisters," the exiled spiritual leader said he was a "simple monk" trying to preserve "the Tibetan people's distinctive culture, language and identity." "Even at this juncture I have expressed my willingness to the Chinese authorities to work together to bring about peace and stability," he wrote. "I have appealed to the leadership of the PRC (People's Republic of China) to clearly understand my position and work to resolve these problems. I urge the Chinese leadership to exercise wisdom and to initiate a meaningful dialogue with the Tibetan people." "I also appeal to them to make sincere efforts to contribute to the stability and harmony of the PRC and avoid creating rifts between the nationalities," the message said. The Dalai Lama, who is currently in the Indian capital conducting Buddhist meditation workshops, also said he was "deeply saddened by the loss of life in the recent tragic events in Tibet." "I am aware that some Chinese have also died. I feel for the victims and their families and pray for them," he said, adding the rioting only underscored "the urgent need to seek a peaceful and mutually beneficial solution through dialogue." "Chinese brothers and sisters, I assure you I have no desire to seek Tibet's separation. Nor do I have any wish to drive a wedge between the Tibetan and Chinese peoples," he said in the lengthy statement. "My primary concern, as I have repeated time and again, is to ensure the survival of the Tibetan people's distinctive culture, language and identity. As a simple monk who strives to live his daily life according to Buddhist precepts, I assure you of the sincerity of my motivation." He also rejected Beijing's allegations he was seeking to undermine the Beijing Olympics in August. "I have, from the start, supported Beijing's being awarded the opportunity to host the Games. My position remains unchanged," he said, praising China's "long history and extremely rich civilisation." "But China also needs to earn the respect and esteem of the global community through the establishment of an open and harmonious society based on the principles of transparency, freedom, and the rule of law," he added. He said, however, that Chinese "state media's portrayal of the recent events in Tibet, using deceit and distorted images, could sow the seeds of racial tension with unpredictable long-term consequences." More than two weeks of unrest in Tibet and western China, including violence in Lhasa on March 14, and China's response ahead of the Beijing Olympics in August have sparked international controversy. No punishment Meanwhile, China will not punish a group of Tibetan monks for disrupting a Government-organised foreign media tour of the Tibetan capital Lhasa and voicing support for the Dalai Lama, a senior official said in a bid to allay fears of repercussions. Baema Chilain, vice-chairman of the Chinese-controlled Tibet Autonomous Region, also said "separatists" were planning to disrupt the Olympic torch relay in Tibet. However, he pledged to ensure the flame's security there and on its planned ascent of Mount Everest, the state news agency Xinhua reported. Yesterday about 30 monks at the Jokhang Temple, one of the holiest in Tibet, shoved their way into a briefing and spent about 15 minutes telling reporters the Government was lying about recent unrest. They also rejected Chinese claims the Tibetan spiritual leader was directing the rash of protests. These monks who staged the bold protest will not be punished, Xinhua quoted Baema Chilain as saying. "But what they said is not true. They were attempting to mislead the world's opinion," he said. "The facts shouldn't be distorted." The Dalai Lama has condemned the violence and denies he seeks more than greater autonomy for his homeland. 'Monks being starved' More than a dozen Western and Asian diplomats have arrived in Lhasa as part of a public relations exercise launched by China to limit the damage from the Tibet crisis, envoys said. They will visit for two days. Critics of China say there is widespread discontent among Tibetans, including monks, who feel their religious practices are restricted, their culture is being suffocated by an influx of Chinese to Tibet and their autonomy is not sufficient. About 1,000 paramilitary police entered Kirti monastery in Aba (Ngawa) prefecture, Sichuan province, searching for pictures of the Dalai Lama today, Matt Whitticase of the Free Tibet Campaign said. Telephone calls to the temple were disconnected. The London-based Campaign said it had received unconfirmed reports from various sources in Tibet that three main monasteries in Lhasa - Ganden, Sera and Drepung - have been cut off since March 11, with no access to food, water and electricity. "The monks in those monasteries are being starved. The reports have said that Tibetan laypeople have attempted to bring food to the monasteries but have been denied access," it said. Mr Chilain said the monks at the monasteries and the Jokhang were being "temporarily confined to the premises as the authorities were investigating allegations that some of them led or participated in the violence". The International Campaign for Tibet said it had reports of mass arrests of Tibetans in Lhasa, including those known to have studied in India - where the Dalai Lama has lived since fleeing in 1959 - and former political prisoners. In Lhasa, prosecutors had issued arrest warrants for 30 people in connection with the Lhasa violence, Mr Chilain said. So far, 414 people had been detained, mostly ethnic Tibetans but also some members of the Han majority ethnic group. China says 19 people were killed in the unrest by Tibetan mobs, but the Tibet government-in-exile in Dharamsala, India, estimated there had been 140 deaths in the violence. - AFP/Reuters Help My Stories Bookmark stories, video and audio clips you may want to access later. Also Of Interest Dalai Lama envoys, Chinese Govt plan reconciliation talks 28 Jun 2007 - 39 weeks ago Merkel meets Dalai Lama despite Chinese protests 24 Sep 2007 - 27 weeks ago Tibet willing to remain part of China: Dalai Lama 10 Mar 2005 - 159 weeks ago Dalai Lama against Olympic boycott 18 Mar 2008 - 1 week ago NZ cautious over Dalai Lama visit 19 Jun 2007 - 40 weeks ago
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