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Post by Jane on Jul 19, 2007 14:48:47 GMT -5
Sounds like several of us here are going through a bad patch. At this particular moment in time, I'm doing fine, but I can certainly comiserate if you are not. (Of would if I could spell it correctly...)
Churchill called his depression "the black dog" and staved it off with copious amounts of brandy.
What's the best and worst advice you've ever gotten to "get over it."
The ten worst things you can say to someone who is truly depressed:
10: Don't think about it.
9: Other people have it worse than you.
8: Count your blessings
7: Grin and bear it.
6: God doesn't give you more than you can handle.
5: Take a long bubble bath.
4: Eat chocolate.
3. Read a good book.
2: Think of your ____________(husband, kids, mom, dog etc. etc.)
And the very worst thing to say to someone who is depressed?
#1: Cheer up.
The best things to say to someone who is depressed. (Not as many, you will note.)
5: I'm sorry.
4: Let time pass.
3: I really do know how you feel (If you really do.)
2: You aren't alone.
And the number one best thing to say:
# 1: I'll write you a prescription.
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Post by Gracie on Jul 19, 2007 15:04:59 GMT -5
Ah yes. Hemingway called it 'black ass days.' And we all know how things ended for him.
Some of the things I've been told are 'you just need to pray about it.' (As if I weren't already.)
Or 'snap out of it!'
Or 'you're not depressed, you're just lazy.'
And then there are those who give you the patronizing look, the 'you are truly a pathetic, imbecilic child.' I think I hate that most of all.
Jane, your list is great. Someone dear to me once asked what he should do when such a hard time was flattening me, and I told him that there just weren't any hard and fast, one-size-fits-all answers: sometimes I want to be held, sometimes I want to be left completely alone. Sometimes I can talk about it, and sometimes I can't. Sometimes I can write through it, or paint through it...and sometimes I can't--that's the worst of it, when I can't even write, because I normally write a minumum of three hours a day.
Mostly what I have to do is remind myself what is real, and what is not; I think I've said here before that it's exactly, and I do mean exactly, as portrayed in "A Beautiful Mind," where the voices and presences are terrifyingly real. There are days when I am telling myself continually, 'this is not happening,' even though everything I see and hear are so vivid...and so vicious.
Grizzy has heard me say during these moments that "I just have to feel the way I feel until I don't feel this way anymore." There isn't any shortcut through pain, and while I might feel terribly weak when going through it, I realize all over again how strong I am...because I'm still here, dammit.
Still here. Still fighting. Not gonna go down with this ship...
I find myself, when someone else is going through such times, saying "I am so sorry it hurts so much right now; I'm here for you, what can I do to help?"
And many times, helping someone else through their darknesses lighten my own.
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Post by gailkate on Jul 19, 2007 19:39:14 GMT -5
I'm sorry I can't talk about this in public. It's just too exposed.
Well, duh. That sure was profound, wasn't it?
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Post by Trusty on Jul 19, 2007 22:29:32 GMT -5
I saw a friend (Ricky) at church the other day, and , out of habit, I said, "How you doin'?"
Ill never forget his response: "I'm great! I don't have a choice."
My first reaction was thinking, "Get real, phony Christian. You DO have a choice."
Then I thought, "Damn! Ricky has disciplined himself to NOT have a choice," and I started debating in my mind just how shallow that could be.
Now, I know Ricky fairly well; he's not shallow. He has just trained himself to treat depression as a challenge and find new ways to beat it. His attitude is so positive that it attracts encouragement, and I don't forget his responses.
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Post by brutus on Jul 20, 2007 3:28:27 GMT -5
Seems the whole world has the black dog following them around, these days. I'd heard about depression but never really knew what it was until I discovered that I was somewhat that way. The feeling that a black cloud is hovering about forehead high, following one around all day. What I want then is for a Certain Someone to just sit with me and be as tender as she can be. I don't want any advice from anyone, I just want to know that somebody cares. I think the lack of silly conversation, you know, joking around, being totally goofy, allows this cloud to hang around. I know a few good belly laughs would help break it up. 'Course, a li'l.......(ahem) "Stress Reliever" helps a lot too. ;D ~B~
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Post by Gracie on Jul 20, 2007 7:13:12 GMT -5
I saw a friend (Ricky) at church the other day, and , out of habit, I said, "How you doin'?" Ill never forget his response: "I'm great! I don't have a choice." My first reaction was thinking, "Get real, phony Christian. You DO have a choice." Then I thought, "Damn! Ricky has disciplined himself to NOT have a choice," and I started debating in my mind just how shallow that could be. Now, I know Ricky fairly well; he's not shallow. He has just trained himself to treat depression as a challenge and find new ways to beat it. His attitude is so positive that it attracts encouragement, and I don't forget his responses. Thank you, Trusty. Very nicely put. I know someone dear to me, who, when asked how he is, always answers "I am SO much better than I deserve to be!" He is unbelievably upbeat, and yet I never feel that he doesn't know how it feels NOT to be.
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Post by slb2 on Jul 21, 2007 1:59:07 GMT -5
The ten worst things you can say to someone who is truly depressed: 10: Don't think about it. For me, I find this helpful. Currently I am in a bad place over several issues. When I take the time to NOT think about it, but instead focus on positive issues, sometimes the answer to my problem will reveal itself to me. But maybe saying this to someone else is unhelpful, which is what Jane is trying to point out. True, to say Cheer up is pukey, but otoh, to ACT as though life were good and cheerful sometimes helps. So, maybe it's not good to say to someone else, but I think it can be good to say to oneself. You know, how we're told to act/pretend like the person you want to be. Act like a confident winner and you'll BE a confident winner. Act like a whiner and whadda-ya-know? You're a whiner! Hmmm. I've never liked when people have said that to me. I'd rather hear, I understand how you can feel that way. But even people who have experience one aspect of my pain, haven't experienced the whole kit-n-kaboodle, and so can't really possibly know how I feel. Ba-dum!
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Post by gailkate on Jul 26, 2007 11:08:37 GMT -5
Good morning, fellow Sisters by Choice. I wanted to talk about this in PMs but it seems some don't like the notion of private conversations, like a cabal of loonies. However, I'm wary of public disclosures. Now that I've learned we're more "out there" on the web, I'm even warier. But I want to tell you about an odd little book that's been useful to me and people I've recommended it to.
1. Hope and Help for Your Nerves (Signet) by Claire Weekes (Paperback - Sep 4, 1990) Buy new: $6.99 69 Used & new from $2.60 2. Hope and Help for Your Nerves by Claire Weekes (Hardcover - 1969) 17 Used & new from $0.01
Note that the hardcover came out in 1969 (maybe even earlier). She uses language that sounds like an old movie on melancholia, but it's worth looking at. Especially worth it if you've had panic attacks.
Also, the alchemy of our brains requires the ministrations of an alchemist. Never hesitate to ask for more/different/new combinations, even if you've been doing all right. You might do even better. As we all know, this has nothing to do with getting high.
People are posting less, and I'm going to back off, too. No dramatic exit, just a need to soothe my own nerves. But I'll PM from time to time because I love so many of you.
Now let's join hands and sing the Marsaillaise together: Marchons!
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Post by booklady on Jul 26, 2007 15:45:20 GMT -5
I'm back from New Hampshire (or, as my friend from Maine who was forced to move there calls it, New Hampster). It was a lovely, therapeutic visit for a couple of days. Yesterday was perfect -- 85, low humidity, a long walk, blueberry picking, pie and potato salad making, talking, crying, wine and champagne. Except for the Red Sox losing, it was otherwise heavenly.
Of course, I had to come back home. The lawn hadn't been mowed, the flowers hadn't been watered, the dishes hadn't been done, and the plum tree still leans.
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Post by Brit on Jul 26, 2007 16:04:50 GMT -5
I am rather alarmed by the comment that gailkate has made.
I find that most of you have made friends with me and now many of these new friends are drifting away.
I am saddened.
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Post by joew on Jul 26, 2007 16:12:37 GMT -5
I suppose nothing in this world lasts forever, but I join Brit in wishing that people would stick around here a little longer. And participate. The more the merrier, to coin a phrase.
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Post by liriodendron on Jul 26, 2007 19:36:13 GMT -5
I have no intention of leaving. I rather like it here. Unfortunately, I've been a bit busy of late and haven't had as much time to post. (Ahem. And popping in while at work doesn't leave me much of an opportunity to say anything profound.)
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Post by Jane on Jul 26, 2007 20:25:05 GMT -5
I love Claire Weeks. During the "worst of times", I carried a book of hers with me at all times.
GK, can I plead with you not to go?
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Post by doctork on Jul 26, 2007 21:04:31 GMT -5
Well I'm not going anywhere either. I just limited my posting while I was on the cruise.
I think summertime is always a bit slower - everyone goes away on vacation, or spends more time outdoors while the weather is good. Not so bad really, we all need some downtime.
Has anyone else been as puzzled as I to note how many people feel the need to be "connected" all the time? I went to get some items at the local grocery here in Colorado, and I couldn't believe how many folks were strolling through the City Market yakking away on their cellphones.
Mostly such inconsequential drivel that I wondered why they bothered. But then there was a woman who engaged in a loud, lengthy discussion about her just-completed visit with her therapist, her diagnosis of bi-polar disorder, and the various new medications that had been prescribed. Did she really want everyone in the store to hear all those details?
And we might think we're exposed here!
Whatever happened to old-fashioned "talk therapy" for depression? Certainly prescription drugs have an important role, but all too often it seems to be the only treatment offered.
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Post by brutus on Jul 26, 2007 21:51:27 GMT -5
Life has been busy for me as well. I have not forgotten any of you good people, nor have I intended to ignore you. I heard Brit's plea and I feel badly that I have not corresponded with him as I used to. I hope to start again. "Black Dog" Indeed! My Golden Retriever has been plagued with a typical affliction germain to her breed, that being hip displaysia. It had progressed to the point that she no longer ate, had a hard time motivating around. So, the hard decision was made to have her put to sleep. My Other Half took her on that last ride to the vet where, at about 08:40 this morning, her misery ended at the tender age of 8 yrs old. The house is bigger this evening....yea, even emptier. Her collar is on the desk beside the moniter. ~B~
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Post by slb2 on Jul 27, 2007 0:41:42 GMT -5
Life has been busy for me as well. I have not forgotten any of you good people, nor have I intended to ignore you. I heard Brit's plea and I feel badly that I have not corresponded with him as I used to. I hope to start again. "Black Dog" Indeed! My Golden Retriever has been plagued with a typical affliction germain to her breed, that being hip displaysia. It had progressed to the point that she no longer ate, had a hard time motivating around. So, the hard decision was made to have her put to sleep. My Other Half took her on that last ride to the vet where, at about 08:40 this morning, her misery ended at the tender age of 8 yrs old. The house is bigger this evening....yea, even emptier. Her collar is on the desk beside the moniter. ~B~ Oh, sweetheart. I sure feel for you. We love our dog to pieces and know how hard that decision can be. So many losses for you, Brut-dear. Here's a hug:
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Post by slb2 on Jul 27, 2007 1:39:38 GMT -5
Far and away, the best thing I can do for my mood is to just DO it. I sometimes exercise too much, to the point of exhaustion. But the more I exercise, the more likely it is that I'll feel elevated above that lowest point, where ever it is. And I definitely feel better if I stick to regular eating habits rather than indulging in comfort-food. In fact, that sort of stuff makes it worse. Cripes, I know what it's like to lay in bed and not want to get up. I've done that for months, during a very bad, depressed stretch. One time the neighbor rang my doorbell and when I came down stairs, he was standing there in my kitchen in his business suit and my toddler was standing there in his low-hanging diapers. Neighbor says, I found him walking around outside. (It was the middle of winter with snow on the ground.) I had no excuse I could give. I had been abed. Zoloft brought me out of that state and I've vowed to keep away from it. The state and the drug, that is. The drug managed to pack forty pounds on me. Now that's also depressing! So when I feel punky, I bike. When I feel really pressed upon, I toss in some St. John's Wort and write extra wherever I can. I make sure I also include some dancing, too. Cajun and zydeco work wonders.
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Post by hartlikeawheel on Jul 27, 2007 4:41:35 GMT -5
I know The Black Dog well. I have met him through other people and he lives with me. He comes in many forms. Forgive me for seeming facile about the concept of depression but this is truth. It appears in so many different ways and with so many different psychological labels. There is that and some of us are able to cope with it by having a glass of wine at night. Others are able to deal with depression by using fairly strenuous excersize. Some need intense psychological talk stimulation and/or medication. Some of us need shock treatments or long term medication. Others need care and rest. Some of us can't eat, some can't sleep, dress or take physical care of ourselves.
I remember when I had a bad day and called Mom. Her advice to me was to do "something nice for some one else." I felt angry. I thought, "No! Today I need someone to do something nice for me!" I think we aren't always made to continuously give or to take. A lot of depressed people do. I asked her if she had realized that it had taken me over ten minutes put my sox on that morning.
So we have to be careful when we allow amateurs to give us advice about our mood status. We have to watch for balance and to make that balance happen. Every one does. Even people with no apparent illness. That's how we stay well.
There is a bit more and I'll just blab on a bit more so. There are several different kinds of depression, just as there are many kinds of other mental health diseases and types of character disorders. They all need special recognition and differrent types of care.
I'll betcha I'm just boring the hell outta you who are still hanging in.
But you know sadness is not mental illness. Psychiatrists would call it dysphoric mood disorder. That would translate as those days when you just feel really bad. Could be situational. hormonal, whatever.
And when you have clinical depression that could mean a tumor somewhere or other causes of chemical imbalance. A few thoughts to be aware of.
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Post by Jane on Jul 27, 2007 8:24:26 GMT -5
B: so sorry to hear about your dog. It's difficult to lose our friends.
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Post by liriodendron on Jul 31, 2007 11:05:17 GMT -5
Has anyone else been as puzzled as I to note how many people feel the need to be "connected" all the time? I went to get some items at the local grocery here in Colorado, and I couldn't believe how many folks were strolling through the City Market yakking away on their cellphones. I am amused by the folks wandering the aisles speaking into their wireless headsets. They appear to be having lively conversations with themselves. As for talk therapy, in my opinion it works wonders, whether it is with a trained professional or a caring friend.
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Post by hartlikeawheel on Aug 17, 2007 11:46:51 GMT -5
I am so sorry about the loss of your dog, B. There is little that hurts as much other than losing a beloved human being.
This year we had to put down two little old ladies and two kittens who were incurably ill. I've never had that happen before. Have always raised all my kitties to long old ages. It was tough.
They lie under my sumac with all the other lost kitties and I bought a nice stone for them which says, "Those we hold in our arms for a short while we hold in our hearts forever."
We gather up the deaths as we age.
I think it's illegal. Heehee. Wish I could be with them at the end.
My vet and her assistant were requested by their dying friend to bury her cat with her when it finally died. And they did! They sneaked out to the graveyard at night and buried kitty next to her.
The police showed up and they had to go to court! My funny, sincere friends. Good people. Such a serious crime they committed!
I wish talk therapy worked for everyone and I wish not all doctors think pills are the solution.
Sometimes it takes one or the other and sometimes it takes a combination. Hope nobody makes the mistake of thinking that just talking will cause healing because sometimes the problem is a brain chemistry aberration and it won't respond much to talk therapy anymore than cancer would. Both are good. Love and comfort are healing.
What is startling to me is how widespread depression is in our society today. I puzzle over that. Chemicals? Situational problems? Genetic gifts? Does the constant use of antidepressants cause a lack of resiliance to depression?
Generally I think of depression as occurring because a person's heart and soul are missing something essential but I don't always know what that is or how to fix it.
These are fascinating things to ponder.
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Post by brutus on Aug 17, 2007 19:52:50 GMT -5
Well, if she wasn't such a doggone NICE dog, it wouldn't be so bad. She was one you could send outside without tying up, when she was done with her biznez, she'd come and lay on the porch, waiting to be let back into the house. She loved being around her "People". She also knew just where to lay....which was where you wanted to walk. It's taken awhile to get used to not having to pick my feet wayyyy up when going into the front room. R.I.P. Bridgette. ~B~
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Post by Seattle Taz on Aug 21, 2007 23:08:38 GMT -5
Oh, Brutus, I'm so sorry that Bridgette died. She does rest in peace, for sure.
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Post by brutus on Aug 24, 2007 21:18:42 GMT -5
Taz, your condolences were not ignored, in fact, I'm grateful to you. However, the "other" black dog was riding me pretty hard today. You see, when I started with the company I'm with, I was given the idea that I'd be able to train in on some of the other equipment. We have excavators, a grader, we did have a dozer, and a fifty-ton crane. So far, after almost six years, I'm still a truck driver. That has been one black dog that has stayed with me. Others have been hired around me to operate this equipment. I've never been given the chance to prove myself. I have my ideas as to why, but I'm keeping still on that point. Consequently, the long days of relative isolation from "civilization" while I go about my work wears me down. Since my wife has been working nights, she's often asleep when I get home. So, except for small timeslots, my days are pretty much spent alone. Some days, that black dog gains a lot of weight and today was one of those days. ~B~
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Post by booklady on Aug 25, 2007 8:53:56 GMT -5
B-man, remember, there is always the b-word: books!This message brought to you by Booklady.
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Post by gailkate on Aug 25, 2007 10:56:49 GMT -5
Add to that, recorded books. We don't want Brutus reading while driving. It's hard to have work that's less than fulfilling, hard to feel that somehow you're not appreciated for all that you could do. Sometimes I think the industrial revolution did us great harm as human animals. Not that everyone farmed before then, but many more people had occupations that didn't depend on others' evaluations. If the crop didn't come in, it just didn't. Now we tend to define ourselves by our work and our recognition much more than used to be the case. All we can do is try not to let that happen. Some lame comfort, huh? My heart breaks for your loss of Bridgette. Those loving creatures leave huge footprints behind them.
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Post by booklady on Aug 25, 2007 17:28:58 GMT -5
Oh, thank you Gail for bailing me out! You are so right. Right now I am listening to the show, which GK has told us is "all about work." I do agree with you that it's tough to have unrewarding work. I know that some people find money to be a great reward but I've like other things more. In the town of Lowell, Massachusetts, where there were early textile mills along the Merrimack River, there's a museum now dedicated to textile workers and mills. It's a neat place to visit. One thing they have is a small theater that shows a documentary on the Industrial Revolution. They prominently feature Jefferson's philosophy (if I understand it correctly) that man should not be separated from the rewards of his labor -- that when a person goes to work to make profits for someone else, he really is in essence a slave even if he gets paid. I guess I'm getting far afield. Brutus, I'm awfully sorry about your dog, and I know well the time it takes to adjust from not stepping into a space that is no longer occupied by the dog.
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Post by slb2 on Aug 28, 2007 0:24:24 GMT -5
Taz, your condolences were not ignored, in fact, I'm grateful to you. However, the "other" black dog was riding me pretty hard today. It's too bad you don't have a wireless laptop in your cab. When you are sitting there at the site or scale, waiting to unload your freight, you could also unload your angst with us. split shifts with a spouse can be nice, but not when you need to connect. Cyberpals really can't take their place. Even when we try our best. I was just reading in Prevention magazine about maintaining a social network. That's important for many reasons. Social communities via the internet are, imo, one of the best traits of this Cyberworld. Sure it can be abused, as any other social arena. But it really offers others a chance to connect. Tell me, Brutus, do you have lots of male friends in Jamestown and surrounding area? And this question isn't just aimed at Brut. But men, in general, are not as social as women, they haven't as many or as deep of friendships, according to the paper and journals, etc. I know that Ace does not have one single friend in the area. He says I'm his emotional support. Wow. I couldn't manage like that. I need my friendships. I'd say I have three fairly local friends that have lasted over thirtyfive years, so far. These are very close friendships. Then I have other, more transitory or fresh friends. ykwim People I've met through my children--the parents of my children's friends. Plus church and Girl Scouts and other common touchstone places. Like neighbors. Then there's cyberfriends. More shakey, but often very intense and Real. And some of these (you) friends have panned out into tangible friendships. Family is good for friendships, too.
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Post by brutus on Aug 28, 2007 6:33:55 GMT -5
Actually, I do have a lot of male friends. However, schedule differences often make it hard to get together. Lots of evenings, I'm home late enough from work that it's impossible to have my supper, get stuff ready for the next day, go visit, and get home at a decent hour for some sleep. Pretty hard to pack all that into three hours or so. Oh well, guess I'll just have to figure it out. Thanks, though, Slb. ~B~
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Post by Brit on Aug 28, 2007 14:18:22 GMT -5
For many years, my best friend was a black and white dog.
No matter what I did, he licked my hand and obeyed my every word.
Do I have male friends now? Yes, a few. A very few. Andy and I still escape to work out the cryptic crossword on occasions, but not every evening as we used to.
Andy and I are able to confide in each other our most intimate thoughts and to have such a trust is something that cannot be ignored.
Alan is a guy I met only 2 years ago, but we have come to regard ourselves as brothers. We see each other several times a year - he satys with us and we stay with him when the need arises. He lives around 150 miles away! I'm meeting up with him on Saturday with some other friends.
Alan and I are escapees from the cult I often mention, and the people we are meeting on Saturday (about 100 miles west of Maidenhead) know nothing of our background, but want us both (and our spouses of course) to attend.
Following on from my recent success as a Vicar, my party piece has now become my impersonation of the late Peter Sellers when he took some of the Beatles better-known songs and intoned the lyrics in the style of a sanctimonious vicar.
Alan has promised to make a DVD of it with the intention of putting it on You-tube. Watch this space folks!
But to answer the question about male friends, I don't have many, but by the same token, I don't have many girl-friends either!
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