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Post by booklady on Oct 23, 2012 9:14:13 GMT -5
What did folks do before there was a pill for it?
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Post by booklady on Oct 23, 2012 9:20:03 GMT -5
I am sick of fighting undetermined allergies and not in a position to (or really interested in) allergy tests. I just know it when I feel it -- sinus pressure, sometimes (not always) congestion and sneezing, drips and coughs. I have taken generic allegra and claritin but I'm not thrilled about the side effects. I've heard that people shoot warm water up their noses, but it seems like noses are pointing downward and have hairs and stuff for a reason, that being to keep out foreign matter, so I wonder about the ultimate wisdom of rinsing out our sinuses.
Does anybody have any natural sinus pressure/pain remedies? a vaporizer? mint tea? standing on one's head? eating less dairy? eating more rice? I have no idea. But I bet people had things they did or ate or avoided (like living in a hilly, humid city near a river or on Cape Cod with who knows what flying allergens) before anyone invented medicine. In those old Jean Auel novels the heroine had headache remedies and birth control before the invention of wine, practically.
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Post by Jane on Oct 23, 2012 10:18:19 GMT -5
I believe in drugs. Have you tried otc benadryl? My daughter uses a Neti Pot (that's the salt water up the nose) and seems to think it works, but she also uses an inhaler. (She has exercise induced asthsma and is a dancer. Go figure.)
Steam should work too. But not dry steam like a sauna. Is there such a thing as dry steam?? I have tried breathing in steam from a sink full of boiling water infused with vicks vaporrub. My mom used to rub it on my chest, so just the smell makes me feel all nurtured and warm.
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Post by booklady on Oct 23, 2012 11:37:33 GMT -5
Benadryl puts me right to sleep. Drugs are fine, but I'm starting to worry about 60 years' worth. Also, when they make me sleepy or keep me awake, that annoys me. Sleep is difficult enough already for some of us. I do wonder about a vaporizer, although the humidity here is it's own problem (it was 100 percent this morning) so I'm not sure what it would accomplish. I want a magic wand.
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Post by jspnrvr on Oct 23, 2012 15:35:43 GMT -5
Our daughter has always had sinus issues and she uses a Neti pot on occasion, same as Jane's girl.
More water and less dairy will help keep secretions "mobilized", at least that's what we were taught in nursing school. You'll still be junked up but it will be easier to blow it out/cough it up. I think the key with the moisture is the steam is a mist, as opposed to just a heavy humidity. Zyrtec, cetirizine, is available OTC now. It has the advantage of being a 24 hr medication, one a day. It also is much less sedating than a lot of the other meds, at least for me. I can take it and drive, do my work. It doesn't affect blood pressure like benadryl, for instance.
As far as what folks did in the old days.....I'm sure you've been through old cemeteries, booky. The old guy with a couple young wives next to him. Or the couple with the little headstones, the children lost under the age of 2 or 3. What do you suppose those folks would have given for some antibiotics, watching a baby die from strep throat or an earache? Those folks made lots of tea.
I remember back in '09 when I was in Danville, KY and toured the home of Dr. Ephraim McDowell, the doc who performed the first abdominal surgery west of the Appalachian mountains, in 1809. He removed a 20 some-odd pound tumor from a woman, without benefit of anesthesia, asepsis or antibiotics. He wrote a little prayer and tucked it in his shirt pocket, and she sang hymns throughout the procedure. In a week she was up making her own bed, and lived to a ripe old age. A brave lady, I'm sure she'd of liked a little whiff of something!
I agree, the less medication the better, and I don't dismiss anything, from prayer to acupuncture, to you name it. I don't believe there's a pill for every ill. But if it's out there and gives relief, heck yeah!
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Post by doctork on Oct 23, 2012 15:38:33 GMT -5
Short answer: Try homeopathic rememdies.
Long answer, see below:
While I was at AAFP last week I visited the Boiron Company exhibit booth and looked at their information on homeopathic remedies. I am not trained in homeopathy, though I have MD colleagues I have known over the years who are so trained, and they use homeopathy in conjunction with their allopathic treatments.
If you visit a large drug store or a natural foods emporium they will likely have some homeopathic remedies for sale, and the pharmacist there (if it is a traditional drugstore with a pharmacy) may be knowledgeable and give you advice. This proprietary booklet from Boiron lists "Galphimia glauca" (commonly known as "shower of gold") as a hay fever remedy, and there are several other products listed for various allergy symptom relief.
The basic theory behind homeopathy is that natural substances are used in a very dilute form as treatment; they are diluted enough that they are usually considered not really medication by the FDA (like food supplements). So they are not usually FDA-approved, though this booklet I picked up says their remedies are FDA approved. Probably has to do with whether they advertise medical efficacy or not.
I don't know enough to render an opinion, though I will say that AAFP is not known to permits quacks to exhibit. [Coca-Cola had a huge display in the "Nutrition Pavilion" and given my family heritage I am OK with that, but many attendees thought that allowing Coke to display in the nutrition area was, let's just say, "a bad idea."] The Boiron courses on homeopathy are AAFP credit approved - and that means they meet very strict criteria.
After all those disclaimers, I'll say that I brought home samples of arnica cream to use for muscle aches and pains because we have used it before at home and thought it helpful. I also brought home a bottle of cold remedy liquid to try this winter when I get a cold.
I am interested in homeopathy because there is a long history behind it (though not much of the usual randomized, double-blinded controlled studies) and because the remedies have no toxicity or bad side effects if used as directed. Almost everything else I prescribe has potential side effects, sometimes quite severe.
Booky, a lot of people swear by those Neti pots, though I can't tolerate them myself. OTC loratidine (Claritin) or Allegra (I forget the OTC generic name) "should not" make you sleepy, but Benadryl (diphenhydramine) almost always causes drowsiness, though it too is good for treating allergies.
Personally, for allergic rhinitis ("hay fever") I like steroid nasal sprays (Nasacort, etc) because they are effective, and the steroid gets only where it is needed - the nose - but is not a high enough dose to get into the blood stream where steroids can cause serious side effects from head to toe (literally). Same principle applies to steroid inhalers when used daily for asthma.
Then there is Singulaire (monteleukast), a prescription pill taken nightly (in case it makes you sleepy, usually doesn't) for asthma and allergies. I have eliminated almost all my other asthma/allergy meds with Singulaire. And it just went generic recently so it is now much cheaper.
As far as all the allergy testing, then getting those shots weekly, it seems to me that is effective, but most people do not want to go through all the trouble.
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Post by gailkate on Oct 24, 2012 0:19:12 GMT -5
I had lots of allergies as a child, got better, then got more. Since returning from my little trip to Michigan my nose and ears have been distinctly worse than what I'm used to putting up with. So first my doc gave me an antibiotic and a steroid. It only got a little better. Then I had another allergy work-up and it proved that I no longer have allergies! Oh, yeah? It seems "irritants" can cause just as much trouble, and whatever they are, they're irritating. (Various medics along the way suggested the neti pot and I said I was not suicidal.) Then the ENT guy did this and that, gave me a nasal steroid but not the same name as K's, and now I'm getting 3 head, neck and artery MRIs on Friday. Medicare will pay lots of money to rule out scary stuff, and when all is said and done I bet the diagnosis will be "getting old." I'm trying not to bore you with 6 weeks' of detail, so just trust that I'm not a hypochondriac and these docs aren't blithely ordering pricey tests. I don't mean to be flippant, it's just that so many things can't be fixed, you know? Jane's right about the Vicks on the chest, only my mom was a Mentholatum fan. Either one is a lot better than the hot mustard poultices they talk about in old books. That must have been what Musterol was invented to replace - remember that? I have a vague memory of being reassured the Mentholatum wasn't the burning stuff (like mercurachrome as opposed to iodine) so we kids wouldn't start carrying on. So you could get the generic Claritin or learn how to sear your skin with a hot mustard poultice or buy some Vicks. You can also just put some Vicks in a cup and pour boiling water over it, no need for the whole sinkful. Poor Bookie
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Post by booklady on Oct 24, 2012 13:51:37 GMT -5
The Misery Index is high today so after waking to burning eyes, sneezes, and a Demanding Nose I caved and went for the fake-Allegra (fexofenadine, or something like that). Some days I take that, some days I take the generic Claritin. Claritin gives me wild dreams -- not scary, but crazy -- and Allegra makes me sleep "softer" -- that's how it feels; I really don't know how else to describe it; Zyrtec is not supposed to make one sleepy but turns me into a zombie. I used to have to take the little yellow Chlortrimiton -- that could put you to sleep for days! But you gotta do what you gotta do.
Jay, I thought about your comments this morning when reaching for the medicine bottle. I guess what you're saying is that before there were pills, people just had to put up with whatever we are able to seek modern medical care for. There just really weren't any magical potions from the natural world. That's why the drugs were invented.
I have no intention of suffering too much through anything. Advil is one of my best friends! However, as I get older I really do wonder how much I can ask of my generous liver before it just gives up. I really do not want to take medication on a daily basis (though I am usually willing to make allowances for that Advil). I wish there was an alternative, allergy-wise. DocK, I will check out some homeopathic remedies. Thanks for the suggestion.
John Adams' daughter Nabby had a mastectomy without anesthesia, and of course there were all those terrible Civil War amputations. There is a retired pharmacist here who gives talks as a Civil War doctor. One lady at a presentation I attended had to go out on the front porch for air when the guy talked about how they would rinse out the bloody bandages found on corpses and reuse them on the living, wounded soldiers. That, and the piled up amputated arms and legs that rose higher than the windows in the buildings they operated in.
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Post by liriodendron on Oct 24, 2012 18:01:17 GMT -5
Um, I read the original post and thought you'd started a thread about birth control. I hope you feel better soon.
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Post by booklady on Oct 24, 2012 20:09:18 GMT -5
LOL. Birth control was not on my mind, but it can be discussed here, too, if somebody wants to tell us about their natural remedies to prevent pregnancy. I believe I've already found my own.
(P.S. My intent was to discuss ANY natural remedies that would help us avoid taking medication.)
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Post by BoatBabe on Oct 24, 2012 21:30:21 GMT -5
My allergies are killing me this year, too! We are still having a killer Ragweed Season. And I'm allergic to some of the stuff in the medication, which makes it even worse. I can't take the generic Allegra, because they use different binders to make the pill, and they bother me. I have settled, at the moment, on the 12-hour Allegra (can't do the 24-hour one for who knows what reason.) And no "D," which includes Sudafed, and increases the blood pressure. My doc prescribed the generic Fluticasone nose spray which seems to help some. My eyes are the worst. I'm now using just an OTC lubricating eye drop: Systane Ultra. But I have to get it in single use vials, as they have no preservatives like the multiple-dose bottles, and I'm allergic to the preservatives. I have found no natural/herbal/homeopathic remedies to replace these. I have tried the Netty Pot (it's called here) and added a HUGE sinus infection to my list. I know folks who swear by it but it doesn't work for me. I have a client at work that SWEARS that if I just eat A LOT of garlic, and take those garlic supplements, all of my allergies will go away. I can hardly get through his transaction because he stinks so badly. But, who knows? Clearly he thinks it works for him.
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Post by doctork on Oct 24, 2012 22:18:36 GMT -5
BoatBabe, consider with your doctor is you are interested in Singulaire (monetelukast) - the nightly pill for asthma and allergies in general.
Specifically for allergic conjunctivitis (itchy, watery eyes) there is a prescription eye drop called Patanol (olapatidine) that might be helpful.
And if all is terrible you could always discuss with your physician the use of oral prednisone or similar like the Medrol Dosepak. Quite effective to break an severe and acute asthma/allergy attack, but oral steroids are loaded with side effects potentially involving every single bodily system.
In my inbox today was an ad for a new book "The Mayo Clinic Book of Home Remedies" which looks like it could be useful though the amazon reviews are a bit mixed.
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Post by gailkate on Oct 24, 2012 23:33:25 GMT -5
Since so many of our meds come from natural sources, I have no qualms about using drugs - so long as the side effects are known and there's some history. But it seems that it's getting easier and easier to get drugs approved despite serious side effects. I love the TV ads that say, "oh, and besides liver, kidney, heart and lung complications __x__ can cause thoughts of suicide." Oh, yay, sounds perfect. Or that one that says "if you have trouble swallowing, call your doctor" - K, does that mean the pt. is going into anaphylactic shock?
Many of the natural remedies have potential dangers, so I'd prefer trusting in something that's been tested in reputable research. A friend rubbed his teething son's gums with some kind of tincture of belladonna on the recommendation of a coworker. It's called Deadly Nightshade for a reason, but it's easy to get in natural foods stores.
Btw, K, I tried arnica for pain and it didn't work at all. Is there a certain percentage that's supposed to be effective?
Fluticasone is the stuff the ENT gave me, and I do think it helps.
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Post by brutus on Oct 25, 2012 6:03:52 GMT -5
LOL. Birth control was not on my mind, but it can be discussed here, too, if somebody wants to tell us about their natural remedies to prevent pregnancy. I believe I've already found my own. (P.S. My intent was to discuss ANY natural remedies that would help us avoid taking medication.) Most natural form of birth control Thai I know of............ Stay dressed! ;D
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Post by booklady on Oct 25, 2012 8:44:47 GMT -5
Well, that depends on what you're wearing (or not wearing) to begin with, doesn't it, Brutus?? BB, I am so sorry to hear how much your allergies put you through. I am a baby for whining alongside you. When you are allergic to things in the allergy medicines, that's a problem. I swear ragweed bothers me greatly -- it was all over Cape Cod last week and I was in an allergic tizzy before I even noticed it -- but doctors have told me that only airborne pollens cause these allergies and ragweed pollen is carried by bees and such so it is not a culprit. Alrighty then. Please tell me why I am bothered so much when it's around! Why ARE we allergic to stuff, anyway? Why do I get that nasty rash when I get anywhere near poison ivy, while other people can sleep naked in it and never even notice?
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Post by booklady on Oct 25, 2012 9:38:27 GMT -5
I have wondered, and maybe Doc and or someone else can clear this up (please forgive the pleas for free medical advice.....please, please, please! I really don't mean to be rude, and please slap me upside the head if I am being so), would it actually be better for someone to take allergy medicine daily, rather than only when the symptoms get bad? I know two women here who just take an allergy pill daily, as a matter of course, like treating high blood pressure or something.
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Post by doctork on Oct 25, 2012 23:14:20 GMT -5
Deciding to take daily allergy meds depends on how much trouble you have. For some people it's just a few weeks in the spring, they just use meds then. For people who have nearly year-round issues, the daily Rx makes more sense. I'm in that latter group - I use fluticasone twice a day and monteleukast every night. I have enough other medical issues, so I am not putting up with allergy symptoms that can easily be treated with medication.
I think ragweed pollen can be blown around by the wind and cause bad allergies, even if some of it is carried by bees. I know way too many patients who are clearly allergic to it. And I thought I'd never see that type of allergy here in the desert - until I found out that sage is a botanical cousin of ragweed!
I don't think it is easy at all to get a new drug approved - it takes many years and costs over $1 billion. However, since laws allowing DTC (direct to consumer) ads were passed, the FDA requires that all the side effects be listed in the ads. Our annual pharmaceutical costs have doubled from 6% of the health care dollar to 12% since DTC ads were approved. That is despite the fact that there is a major shift from brand names to generics.
Dunno about the arnica composition. Since it's a homeopathic remedy, it is not subject to FDA regulations and scientific research requirements. The tube I have says "Active ingredient: Arnica montana 1X HPUS-7%" but since I haven't used it yet, can't say how this brand works.
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Post by gailkate on Oct 26, 2012 8:47:28 GMT -5
I know we've always been told that R&D for drugs takes forever, but sometimes reality doesn't seem to gibe with that belief. Chantix, for example, has caused so many people severe depression and nightmares that I wonder how it got approved. I was all set to give it a try when the reports on pyschological side effects made me back away fast. Cymbalta for pain is another one. I think the number of subjects in test groups sometimes seems surprisingly small. Disclosure - my stint selling for Sandoz made me really jaundiced about drug companies.
Library ladies! Would it take a lifetime to do a lit search on the effectiveness of the FDA? I really don't mean to be too hard on Big Pharma, as they have also come up with real breakthroughs.
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Post by doctork on Oct 30, 2012 11:11:56 GMT -5
Howard reports that the arnica product sample that I brought home from Philadelphia is working well.
As far as "effectiveness" of the FDA, it would depend on which parameters you want to know about. Any drug strong enough to work is also strong enough to have side effects, so all prescriptions are a balance of benefit vs risk. The package insert for any drug has tons of detail.
When Vioxx and Bextra (used for arthritis treatment) were withdrawn from the market for cardiac side effects, it became apparent that the drugs were often prescribed for people who had not exhausted other, presumably safer, alternatives. Celebrex, also a "COX-2 inhibitor" in the same class - remains on the market but is used much more judiciously. Now studies suggest that any NSAID (Non-Steroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drugs - like ibuprofen or naproxen, sold OTC) may also cause cardiac problems.
There are several levels of New Drug Applications, and the total number of patients may indeed be small - hundreds or a few thousand. Rare side effects that occur once in 5,000 or 100,000 or a million patients will not show up until post-marketing. Personally, I prescribe a new drug only if a patient definitely needs that specific medication - this will usually be a cancer drug, or a new drug for a serious condition that has been hard to treat with currently available medications.
In reality, use of new, brand-name or still experimental drugs will be strictly limited by insurance company formularies, cost, or FDA regs.
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Post by doctork on Oct 30, 2012 21:08:54 GMT -5
I was thinking about this FDA issue while driving to/from work today.
It does seem that the FDA has been "looser" lately than it was in earlier decades. After the thalidomide disaster in the late 50's - early 60's the FDA became very strict about approving new drugs.
A "stubborn" FDA pharmacologist was largely responsible for thalidomide not being sold in the US, thus avoiding the many babies born with birth defects, as occurred in Europe. The FDA rested on its "strict laurels" for decades, until the late 1980's and early 1990's when the HIV/AIDS community pressed for faster approval. Thousands of people were dying while the FDA "dragged its heels."
The actual process of drug approval requires that there be enough patients in the clinical trials to statistically prove that the drug is more effective than placebo; this may be a fairly small number. The information on complications and side effects is reviewed by the relevant FDA committee who weigh whether the benefits are greater than the risks.
The FDA does not require head-to-head testing of the new drug against existing drugs in the same class. There are a lot of "me too" drugs because of this - not really new and different treatment breakthroughs, just another drug similar to existing drugs.
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