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OBL
May 1, 2011 22:12:15 GMT -5
Post by doctork on May 1, 2011 22:12:15 GMT -5
Watching the news feeds, and Osamqa Bin Laden is reported dead, taken out by "US intelligence assets" near Islamabad where he was living in a mansion with his family.
As a physician, I usually can't find it in me to be glad someone died, but if I were to wish someone dead, he'd be #1 on my list. I remember my 176 co-workers who died in the South Tower on 9/11.
I don't know what to expect as a result - there will undoubtedly be those to whom he was a hero who mourn his passing and retaliate against the US and the coalition. OTOH, there are all the freedom movements taking place in so many Middle Eastern and North African countries.
Do you think it might someday soon be safe for me to wear a skirt to the airport again, when I opt out of the Nude-O-Scope?
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OBL
May 1, 2011 23:20:27 GMT -5
Post by gailkate on May 1, 2011 23:20:27 GMT -5
I, too, reacted with gladness and was then ashamed of being happy to hear of someone's death. Maybe it would have been better to try him, but the thousands of people who died brutally because of his fanaticism make it impossible to feel regret.
But the consequences are hard to be hopeful about, at least not yet. We could be looking at vengeful reprisals all over the world. If some plans were in the works, they might be carried out in bits and pieces without any thought to their being fully operational. So they murder a dozen rather than a hundred or a hundred rather than several hundred. It seems to me we're going to be stretched very thin as we try to anticipate every possible attack. If anything, I expect security measures will be tightened drastically.
Of course, I'm speculating with absolutely no knowledge whatsoever.
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OBL
May 2, 2011 6:12:53 GMT -5
Post by Jane on May 2, 2011 6:12:53 GMT -5
It's times like this that I regret not believing in an afterlife. If anyone richly deserves an eternity in a particularly unpleasant hell, here's one.
Today is showing that he "refused to be taken alive" so I guess they had to either kill him or get back on their helicopters and leave.
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OBL
May 2, 2011 8:21:38 GMT -5
Post by booklady on May 2, 2011 8:21:38 GMT -5
"Shocked" is not a strong enough word for my feeling the moment I saw the words on msn.com last night that he was dead. I didn't feel happy about the end of a murdering terroist or sad about the end of human being. I just felt an enormous and cofounding sense of awesome importance. I can't say I understand it.
I also don't understand why his body was buried at sea, but I do not have TV so I haven't seen news coverage and also have not done extensive reading about it online.
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OBL
May 2, 2011 9:10:06 GMT -5
Post by joew on May 2, 2011 9:10:06 GMT -5
I don't have the exact quote, but Mark Twain said something to the effect that he had never wished any man dead, but he had read some obituaries with satisfaction. My initial reaction was similar to booky's. On further reflection: - Christians should pray for their enemies and forgive those who wrong them;
- governments have a responsibility to protect their people, which IMO makes the killing justified both as earthly justice in response to 9/11 and as removing the head of an organization which continued to plot and carry out terrorist attacks;
- since we went into Afghanistan because of him, now we should be able to leave (shouldn't we?).
Maybe burial at sea means there will be no shrine or place of pilgrimage or the like.
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OBL
May 2, 2011 9:21:35 GMT -5
Post by booklady on May 2, 2011 9:21:35 GMT -5
[/li][li]since we went into Afghanistan because of him, now we should be able to leave (shouldn't we?). [/list] Maybe burial at sea means there will be no shrine or place of pilgrimage or the like.[/quote] Yes! Right now. Interesting observation, and if it's correct, I'm for it.
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OBL
May 2, 2011 9:45:44 GMT -5
Post by gailkate on May 2, 2011 9:45:44 GMT -5
Everything I've seen this morning emphasizes the importance of not allowing him to be a martyr, no site that could become a draw for jihadists. It makes perfect sense, as does the speed with which they did it, but I was still surprised. The WaPo account says we didn't want to have to try him, because it would have been a security nightmare and would have given him a perfect platform for rallying supporters. Clean and finished.
I was also interested to hear about all the meetings that have been going on since the CIA first concluded this was Bin Laden back in August. Pres. Obama has been chairing Sec. Council meetings and directing the decision making. What a huge undertaking, making sure it didn't turn out as badly as Carter's attempt to free the Iranian hostages or Clinton's attempt to bomb Bin Laden back in the 90s. Thank God it's done and none of our people was injured.
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OBL
May 2, 2011 17:17:01 GMT -5
Post by jspnrvr on May 2, 2011 17:17:01 GMT -5
This round to us; we'll savor the moment. And congratulations to our military personnel who made it happen. I'm just glad Osama got to see the Americans coming after him, rather than disappearing in a big flash from a "Bunker Buster".
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OBL
May 2, 2011 19:17:32 GMT -5
Post by Nomad-wino on May 2, 2011 19:17:32 GMT -5
His death will not likely diminish the pain for the living family members of the 9/11 victims; but then justice served probably never does.
Some very brave men on that mission. Undoubtedly all volunteers and now they’ve got something incredibly amazing to remember for the rest of their lives. I salute them. Heck, I’d love to buy them all the cold beer they could drink but we’ll probably never know who they are.
Mike
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OBL
May 2, 2011 20:21:02 GMT -5
Post by doctork on May 2, 2011 20:21:02 GMT -5
I am in awe of those Navy SEALs who carried out the mission. Genuine heroes in every sense.
And this was an extremely difficult mission - hovering/landing two helicopters in a wealthy residential neighborhood of a large city, carrying out a 40 minute firefight, and then flying a return to Afghanistan with the body and a whole bunch of computers that will no doubt provide a ton of valuable intelligence. No Americans harmed, no collateral damage of civilians other than OBL's wife who was either caught in the crossfire or used as a human shield.
It is amazing and a credit to those (thousands) involved in the planning of this mission that not a word of this was leaked beforehand.
And if you saw the Washington Press Club dinner, with Sean Myers and President Obama "roasting" everyone including the President, it is ironic & remarkable that Obama did all the "business as usual" - the dinner, the tour of the tornado-ravaged South - while all this was going on.
The President made fun of Donald Trump, citing his "breadth and depth of experience" as he runs his show "Celebrity Apprentice." Why Trump had to realize that the bad food was a problem of leadership, and he had to make the decision to fire Gary Busey. "These are the decisions that keep me up at night." Meanwhile back at the War Room....Obama & Company gets Osama while Trump whines about how did Obama get into Harvard and what about his grades.
And I agree that OBL had to be killed, as he would never have been taken alive; he had instructed his own minions to kill him first if western forces were about to grab him alive. I read that no nation would agree to accept his remains for burial, and Muslim religious requirements are that burial occur within 24 hours of death. So burial at sea with relevant Muslim religious ceremony seems appropriate and expedient.
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OBL
May 2, 2011 23:32:20 GMT -5
Post by gailkate on May 2, 2011 23:32:20 GMT -5
Regarding the Seals, here's a link to a story posted in Common Dreams (yep, it's a lefty digest) with further links. I know we're all seeing all kinds of news, but I found the tributes here to the men who managed this operation especially gripping. www.commondreams.org/headline/2011/05/02-5Col. W. Patrick Lang, a retired Special Forces officer with extensive operational experience throughout the Muslim world, described JSOC's forces as "sort of like Murder, Incorporated." He told The Nation: "Their business is killing al Qaeda personnel. That’s their business. They’re not in the business of converting anybody to our goals or anything like that." Shortly after the operation was made public, retired Gen. Barry McCaffrey called JSOC's operators the "most dangerous people on the face of the earth."
"They’re the ace in the hole. If you were a card player, that’s your ace that you’ve got tucked away," said Gen. Hugh Shelton, who was the Chair of the Joint Chiefs on 9/11, in an interview with The Nation. Shelton, who also headed the Special Operations Command during his career, described JSOC as "a surgical type of unit," adding "if you need someone that can sky dive from thirty miles away, and go down the chimney of the castle, and blow it up from the inside—those are the guys you want to call on." Shelton added, "they are the quiet professionals. They do it, and do it well, but they don’t brag about it. Someone has to toot their horn for them, because they won’t, normally."In an ideal world, I'm a pacifist. I don't like the bombing going on in Libya. But this kind of military action seems morally right to me. I hope we're not going to hear too much sniping about international law from the likes of Musharraf in Pakistan, Russia, and all the other habitual critics.
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OBL
May 6, 2011 20:44:25 GMT -5
Post by doctork on May 6, 2011 20:44:25 GMT -5
As I see all the news coverage, I am reminded of the saying "Truth is the first casualty of war." And of the classic film "Rashomon."
Lots of different stories and spin, according to what is to be gained by the spinner.
But I've been to Afghanistan and Pakistan, and I have done more than a little work with the US government. I don't think we will ever know what "really" happened.
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