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Post by BoatBabe on Feb 5, 2009 1:59:15 GMT -5
I am also mad as hell at people doing business who do not remember or understand that there is STILL morality in business. It is unfortunate that some businesses will only do business properly if there is a government agency forcing them to do so. I encourage you to find businesses that have operated and continue to operate ethically, morally and properly, throughout this era when government oversight has not controlled all.
Now, back to moral people doing moral business: lenders who give their own loans, who do not sell their own loans, who must take care of their own loans, for the LIFE of their own loans, are the types of lenders you are seeking. Portfolio Lenders, is the term.
FDIC insurance on a personal level today:
So, say, you have a checking account and a savings account at my bank [or any bank], and you are the only owner on both of these accounts (that means you are the only one who can transact on these accounts; no other names are on these accounts; they are called Individual Ownership.) Right now you have $250,000.00 FDIC insurance on these two accounts.
Then, say, you decide to open a checking account with your wife. You are both owners, which means both people can transact on the account: two owners; generally, joint with right of survivorship; each of you are awarded $250 thousand FDIC Insurance. So in this ownership type you two have 500 thousand dollars of FDIC Insurance.
Add 250 K of Individual Ownership plus 500 K Joint Ownership equals a total of 750 thousand dollars of FDIC insurance, in the same bank.
Then, let's say, (God forbid) your Mom dies and leaves you a ton of money. You decide to open a (or many) POD account(s.) This is a Payable On Death Trust, which is informal; no lawyers required. This Ownership Type (you are the only owner, no one else can transact on this account until your death or until you change it) requires that you name beneficiaries. You, as the owner, are awarded 250K for each beneficiary you name. Say, you name your four children as beneficieries. FDIC Insurance is one million dollars for this ownership type.
Let's add up your FDIC insurance: 1.750 mil
I will say, because I have personally been asked this question (although I don't believe any of you would ask it): If the bank fails, and you have all this FDIC insurance at the bank, the FDIC will NOT pay you 1.750 million dollars, if this is not the amount of money you actually have on deposit with the bank.
You can increase your FDIC insurance by different ownership types, in the same bank. Please educate yourself on who has access to your money while you are alive and after you aren't.
I could have run up your FDIc insurance, but I thought this was good as a starter.
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Post by rogesgallery on Feb 5, 2009 7:42:50 GMT -5
I just spent the day at a Bank Compliance conference, updating all us compliance people on recent and soon-to-come changes in banking regulation. The emphasis was on real-estate lending; HUD, Flood, Real Estate Settlement Procedures Act and Truth In Lending. My head is spinning. And my thanks go out to all the unethical mortgage lenders who have made this all necessary. ![>:(](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/angry.png) Problem is, regulations are no good without diligent, knowledgable and ethical regulators to oversee them. (Does anyone know where the regulators were during our recent Wall Street and big banking fiascos???)I just spent 5 minutes researching how to profit from other peoples misfortune through bottom feeding the current real estate market. Result: 10,600,000 ways to beat your brother.
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Post by rogesgallery on Feb 5, 2009 8:56:21 GMT -5
Thanks for the easy explanation of FDIC protection BB. Not that I will ever need it but I might run into someone that will.
I Bank with Wells Fargo. The other day I felt compelled to thank someone for their ethical behavior. I just happened to be at the ATM outside my bank when this urge hit me so I sauntered inside and standing in the entry I raised my arms and pronounced loudly "Excuse Me". The silence was deafening and all eyes were upon me. I basked in the limelight for an extended second — Long enough to glance at individual faces frozen in mid task, but not long enough for the timid to achieve a full faint.
"As a customer at this bank I just want to congratulate you all for being part of an organization that has shown an ethical approach to other peoples money in the midst of the current debacle. Thank You!".
As the silence broke into a cacophony of relived good natured commentary I left the sweaty palmed crew without further adieu since, after all, the situation's spontaneity had delivered me without refreshments.
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Post by BoatBabe on Feb 5, 2009 10:09:28 GMT -5
Jeez Louise, Roges! I was gripping my Instant FBI Agent Materializer.
"Me . . . and my I-FAM . . . Strolling down the Avenue . . . "
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Post by sailor on Feb 5, 2009 17:07:29 GMT -5
I guess there are two sides to every coin. ![](http://www.ripoffreport.com/images/reports/61736.jpg) Mike ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/grin.png)
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Post by gailkate on Feb 22, 2009 10:36:23 GMT -5
I think it was the PBS Lehrer news show that had a nice feature on a small bank. Their economics correspondent is a guy named - what? Solomon? - and he's quite good at 'splainin. In this story, though, (could have been NBC) the focus was on one small example of doing it right.
In the meantime are your papers full of people trying to figure out how to grab the stimulus money? One this morning was about someone who wants water project money to improve her snowmaking at a ski slope. Um, I think not. I guess we just have to expect some scrounging opportunists - it's human nature and that's how we got into this.
It is very irritating, however, to see our governor eagerly using the stimulus money to balance the budget even though he's been loudly against it. He came in on a no-taxes pledge and has stuck to it while our finances got grimmer and grimmer, but he's quite willing to take federal hand-outs. A letter in our paper suggested that if you voted against the money, your district shouldn't get any. I love that idea.
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Post by doctork on Apr 6, 2009 20:21:52 GMT -5
Tonight I watched the ABC Evening News with Charlie Gibson: the "special feature" was an exclusive interview with Allen Stanford, the disgraced Texas billionaire who defrauded over $8 billion in securities (so far).
He was crying on national television because 1) he was forced off the Forbes list of billionaires due to his recent losses, and 2) he had to fly commercial aircraft (still first class of course) for the first time in 16 years, instead of using one of his private jets (which had been seized by the feds).
Oh so sad - quick, somebody hand him a tear vase. That's Vaaahhze.
ETMMP! (Enough To Make A Maggot Puke)
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Post by liriodendron on Apr 6, 2009 22:43:27 GMT -5
I have exalted doctork for her very descriptive use of acronyms.
You may now carry on talking about the economy.
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Post by sailor on Apr 7, 2009 1:49:22 GMT -5
Tonight I watched the ABC Evening News with Charlie Gibson: the "special feature" was an exclusive interview with Allen Stanford, the disgraced Texas billionaire who defrauded over $8 billion in securities (so far). He was crying on national television because 1) he was forced off the Forbes list of billionaires due to his recent losses, and 2) he had to fly commercial aircraft (still first class of course) for the first time in 16 years, instead of using one of his private jets (which had been seized by the feds). Oh so sad - quick, somebody hand him a tear vase. That's Vaaahhze. ETMMP! (Enough To Make A Maggot Puke) Doc, you're killing me! LOL! Hi, my name is Allen Stanford, and I'm Enough To Make A Maggot Puke!
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Post by doctork on Apr 7, 2009 11:43:02 GMT -5
Photo and caption are priceless Mike!
That Mr. Stanford is so silly - crying over the loss of his private jets and having to sit in first class in a commercial aircraft. Everyone except him knows that the real tragedy is having to take his shoes off to go through the TSA security line!
He really is ETMMP.
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Post by gailkate on Feb 17, 2010 0:41:49 GMT -5
So here we go! We actually have a thread readymade for talking about the economy. Can we switch Marion's job, government budgets, retirement and 401ks here? I'm very pleased to be reminded of ETMMP. ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png)
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Post by doctork on Feb 17, 2010 4:59:49 GMT -5
Sure we can switch those topics here. Probably the closure of state parks after the legislature swiped their operating funds belongs here too. Lots of good news huh?
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Post by gailkate on Feb 17, 2010 10:31:58 GMT -5
Yes, I think so. I wonder how many hours could be extended if fees went up only a dollar. And I wonder if all the child and senior discounts are really necessary - couldn't there be another mechanism for real hardship cases? For sure I can pay $8 instead of $7.
We're hearing more this morning about what local governments are considering as they try to respond to the guv's "belt-tightening." There will be much more on this, but MPR did some interviews this morning that I'm going to C&P here. It will be choppy as I only want to get the examples.
Albert Lea. Based on the Governor's proposal, the south central Minnesota city is expected to lose $853,000 in state aid. ... looking at cuts and changes to city programs that range from big to small-ticket items. these are all things that were trimmed back in 2009 and will have to be revisited again this year. "We were at 150 employees and we are presently at 137 employees," he said. "The library staff, they knew that they'd only be able to be open five days a week. The parks, for instance, selected areas that were lesser used were mowed less frequently last summer. We have hired fewer part time summer and winter workers." "It's frustrating. You know, we did a lot of preparation in 2009 to get ready for this year."... has also reached an agreement with its police department. This year, each department employee will give 16 hours of accrued holiday or leave time back to the city. Officers also agreed to reduce their semi-annual uniform allowance from $300 to $100. And hourly employees temporarily agreed to suspend premium holiday pay. "Of course now, with a further cut of $850,000 in our LGA, unfortunately, that and more is going be right back on the table as far as how the city would respond to that,"
Fergus Falls and Bemidji will lose roughly 6 percent of their municipal budgets from the governor's cuts. State aid to Fergus Falls will drop by more than $675,000. City leaders there have already cuts supplies, employee training, and recreational services for residents. They've also frozen wages for city employees this year. ...there will be cutbacks in road repairs and city park maintenance in the summer... additional cuts will increase tension among city workers as well as complaints from residents.
"With this additional round of cuts now we're really going to have to take a serious look at some major reductions in services and we're probably going to have to look at some major layoffs and probably reductions in hours, as well."
A lot of this sounds fairly innocuous, doesn't it? I can't help wondering what the salaries for some of these people are - in state govt, the outstate people earn exactly what the Twin Cities people earn, though cost of living is considerably lower. Maybe clerical workers in Bemidgi are hugely overpaid. But even if they are, cuts to employees affects the entire economy. Cuts to amenities affect crime and juvenile delinquency (do we say that anymore?). Even reduced mowing has repercussions - more mosquitoes, more disease. If the unmown areas are near highways, more wildlife strays onto the roads, causing more car crashes. These snippets look minor, but police and fire - even in small towns - are the first responders, perhaps the only EMTs. And I agree with the man who cited rising tension as a real consequence. The toll of unemployment, resentment, discouragement, fear of business failures - it's really hard to calculate.
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Post by hartlikeawheel on Feb 17, 2010 21:39:35 GMT -5
$544,000 cut for North Mankato. Marion's boss says, "We can't do it."
I'm not so positive about that. We can do it. We need to pull together and all help out. We need to lower our expectations, shoo everyone with a sense of entitlement out of the room, begin to learn how to live with and enjoy less.
The city says the swimming pool may have to close. Horrors! Within a ten minute walk of the swimming pool is a lovely little pond I've been swimming in for thirty-some years. It's free, requires little maintenance and has considerably more charm than the pool. Time for the little darlings to learn how much fun it is to swim with minnows kissing their chubby little legs. Time for a little sand in the swimsuit. They'll learn to like it.
Consumerism, the stronghold of Capitalism, needs to take a rest. Bigger and better can take a flying---fly.
Time to decentralize and develop a sense of community which will encourage morality and honesty in business. A little dose of poverty will do this country good.
We all need to learn to live with less.
The horse is dead, it just doesn't know it yet. I'm all for ceasing to whip it up for one last trot around the track.
New things coming down the pike.
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Post by sailor on Feb 17, 2010 22:13:30 GMT -5
I'm with Hart, let's all get together and suffer like a bunch of paupers! Happines is finding one's own hell-on-earth and sharing it with others. Come on everyone, sing "Side By Side" Well we ain't got a barrel of money We may look ragged and funny But we're travelin' on Singing our song Side by side Through all kinds of weather What if the sky should fall? As long as we're together, It doesn't matter at all. So we ain't got a barrel of money We may look ragged and funny But we're travelin' on. Singing our song Side by side Don't know what's comin' tomorrow maybe it's trouble and sorrow but we'll travel the road sharin' our load side by side When they've all had their quarrels and parted we'll be the same as we started just travlin' along singin' a song side by side Now, let's head for the pond and go skinny dippin'. And, if minows kiss yer chubby legs just be thankful that they're not blood suckers! Mike ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/grin.png)
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Post by doctork on Feb 17, 2010 22:49:39 GMT -5
I'm with gk - if people want to go to the pool, raiser the user fees by $1. Others can cut back on consumer spending and donate $$ to cover the people who want to swin but really can't pay that extra $1.
People are still (voluntarily, not the laid off) retiring earlier than ever, yet today's 62 or 65 is much different that that of 50 or 75 years ago. At the Riordan Mansion, most of the docents were older adult volunteers, as were those who manned (not PC I know) the gift shop.
And being a health policy advocate, I can't help but point out that if our health care costs (half of which are borne by private employers) were equal to those of other western industrialized nations ($4,000 per person per year instead of $8,000), we wouldn't be having these wage and budget squeezes, or they would be much less. Cut costs 6%? Benefits run 25% to 30% of wages, and the bulk of this is health insurance. Cut by less than one-third, and there you have it - budget neutral. In a service economy like ours, salary and benefits are the bulk of business costs, unlike manufacturing where so much goes to cost of raw materials.
Don't forget that in many small towns, the fire department and EMS are all volunteers, maybe one salaried manager. Police still get paid, but there is always "Neighborhood Watch."
I think it will still be a long time before we get back to "normal" before the big greed run-iup.
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Post by gailkate on Feb 18, 2010 10:40:36 GMT -5
Since I don't use many obvious amenities like a pool, it's hard for me to join in discussing what expectations we could lower. I don't use the library enough, so cutting a day off the schedule and backing off the hours won't really hurt me. (Too many shelves and shelves of romance and thrillers anyway. : ![:))](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/cheesy.png) But, as Liri has pointed out, libraries are havens for the downtrodden, those old and too poor to pay for entertainment but who love the book clubs and free lectures. Most important, the computers are a lifeline for job-seekers. Libraries and community centers are crucial. We're a gregarious species and we need those gathering places and opportunities to feed the soul. I think it's safe to say the healthcare crisis IS the crisis. Jerry and I pay for private insurance that is way more than any public employee pays - waaaay more. So state and local budgets require taxes of us that buy other people's insurance. My neighbor, whom I really like, has a teacher's pension and insurance that I can't help envying. She also inherited a nice chunk of money, so she takes 3-4 "small" trips a year and this year spent 3 weeks in Egypt. In 2008 it was 3 weeks in Russia, and she's planning to visit her daughter in Germany this spring. It's so easy to say tighten our belts, but it's not going to be easy to pick which belts. Hart and I are among those who haven't worked for pay in some time. I'll speak only for myself. When I quit the job that was sheer misery, I intended to work part time and do a lot more volunteering. I did do the volunteering, but there were few jobs for a 55-yr-old and there are fewer now. My back probably qualifies as a disability, though it never occurred to me to apply for one. My pension is $700 month and I get the lowest Soc. Sec. payment because I took it at 62. Maybe I should feel guilty about that, but I worked for nearly 40 years and paid a ton into that pot. This isn't a poor-me lament. I am hugely lucky. I'm just saying that the real costs are far bigger than pools and mowing. Maybe everyone should be forced to retire at 55 (that covers a lot of people and spouses on this forum) so younger people can get their jobs. Maybe women in child-bearing years should be forced to take birth control and have to petition for approval to conceive a child - when she can afford childcare and insurance. All schools should be private, with a per capita fee that is equal to the cost of educating each child - no group rates, no discounts. K is right. This is going to take a long time. We need to think hard about what kind of people we want to be and what 300 million people can do for meaningful work. Greed has robbed us while enticing us into shallow consumerism - but if we don't buy the i-Phones and media systems, everyone making and selling them is out of a job. Sorry. I wish I could fly like Shaun White.
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Post by hartlikeawheel on Feb 18, 2010 15:48:17 GMT -5
While I don't share the detail-oriented problem solving skills that Doc and gk have, I do think there are some general solutions that everyone can be involved in.
Years ago I learned that it isn't so much my situaton that is troubling in my life but rather how I view it. Our children today are a set-up for despair and anger. And I think you are correct, gk, when you consider the amount of unrest which is present in our culture today. We seem to be on the verge of a national nervous breakdown to match our more materialistic problems.
In a sense our future has been purloined and there's not much that can be done about that. It's going to require a new set of values to survive these hard times with confidence and comfort. And starting with the children is where it's at whenever cultural changes are necessary.
The place to start psychologically seems to me a redefinition of what constitutes a need and what constitutes a want. Because I think our society has a great deal of confusion about that simple concept, spurred by the constant bombardment of commercialism.
I believe that a person can't truly learn the difference between a need and a want until they are actually faced with some tough and uncomfortable decisions. For instance - Do I buy a movie or a loaf of bread? Decisions like that put it in sharp perspective.
A lot of internal changes can accompany those kinds of choices dependent upon how we think about them. We can become angry and feel like victims. Or we can become thankful that we have money for bread.
Better yet, we may even be motivated to learn how to make our own loaf of bread so that we can also afford to buy the movie.
Creativity is spurred and strength and resourcefulness can be born of hardship.
This current generation shares a material bounty unlike any generation in written history, and to my observation they don't seem like grateful and contented children. Instead I see lack of imagination, restlessness and acquisitiveness. A dependency on material things to fill the spiritual void of a world confused by situational ethics.
They really haven't had an opportunity to learn the lessons of gratitude and inner strength. They haven't had to!
I also have faith in the simple principle that when one door closes there is another waiting to be opened.
Nobody likes to make changes or to struggle, but the historical wheel is spinning and it looks like its our turn to learn what less wealthy nations already know. That reality is slow to sink in and many of us are still in shock and denial.
But I think it's time to reframe what's happening and change the goal. Because I don't believe that attenpts to "restore "us to what we had is a constructive effort. We were a nation of too much is never enough and now we will learn why that wasn't good for our bodies, minds and spirits.
To continue to strive for the glory days is an unrealistic goal and a set up for destruction and disillusionment. We are a peoples who need to understand what the words "No, we are broke" mean.
I am hoping that the changes to come will move us toward a deepening interdependency, patience and a renewal of personal strength and integrity that has slipped away while we enjoyed our good lives.
And, gosh, Mike. You nearly gave me the vapors last night! How can you get sand in your swimsuit if you aren't wearing one, for heaven's sake?
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Post by doctork on Feb 18, 2010 21:53:53 GMT -5
I dunno about this "shiftless younger generation business." AFAIK every older generation is critical of "today's younger generation." including when we were the younger generation, and now that we are the older generation.
Frankly, having recent high school and college kids in my family, and working with medical students from time to time, I am very impressed. Yes they have iPods and multi-task (but some of us have iPods and multi-task too) and frankly that is today's world, but many now have cellphones and don't bother with a landline, and the iPods replace home stereo systems and lots of vinyl, tape and CD. Which were often filled with 10 junk tunes and 2 you really wanted. Now just get the two you want for $1.98.
Most of the college students and recent grads I know are very dedicated - studying hard to get a good job because they know it won't be easy (thanks to the mess we Boomers made). There are the reports of overly indulgent helicopter parents, but I am thinking that is predominantly in upper middle class to affluent families in the northeastern cities. Most students I've worked with spend time volunteering - and they did that even before the "mandatory volunteer project" necessary to graduate high school. Young parents display appropriate caring and concern about their young families, and most are skeptical about the constant "Be afraid, be very afraid" mentality that is frankly perpetuated by the media and others with vested interests. But they aren't sure and don't want to be reported to CPS because they let their kid play outside. I am proud of the "next generation" young people that I know, as I have a lot of confidence in their abilities.
About the money and health care. Well you and Jerry are paying the full freight actual cost gk. The average Medicare beneficiary (and they are similar to the 55 - 64 year-olds except for those with more than 4 chronic diseases and/or the terminally ill) costs about $10,000 per person per year. That's $866 per person per month, or over $1700 for 2 people. The average "family plan" in the US costs an employer $12,000 to $15,000 per year and on average covers about 2.0 - 2.5 people - not so different from that $8,000 figure I cited earlier. And bear in mind that employment itself is an underwriting criterion, so employer populations are healthier than average, and the cost is averaged over the whole pool of employees, most of whom are healthy and low cost. Still most employers pay 50 - 75% of the cost, and a few pay 100%, so people believe that health insurance "should cost" or "really costs" the $200 per month they pay in premium plus a $10 or $20 co-pay. NOT.
For those high costs - more than twice as much as the nearest "competitor" (Canada) - we have worse health care stats and a lot more dissatisfaction with the "system."
But you know, everyone wants someone else to tighten their belt, while they personally are doing the right thing, already economizing and don't need to make any more compromises or pay any more taxes. Everything one person labels as "an unnecessary frill" is someone else's livelihood.
Don't tax you Don't tax me Tax that man Behind that tree.
"Side By Side" - a song always played by the Jonesborough Novelty Band at the storytelling sing-along, and Jay and I always regard that as the prairieCHATTER theme song, and of course we sing along, thinking of all you guys!
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Post by gailkate on Feb 19, 2010 1:50:55 GMT -5
I'm not sure what your insurance comments relate to, K. I was agreeing with you - healthcare costs are killing employers. My reference to government employees was only to say that we the taxpayers are the ones footing those costs, so a real hardline budget cutter would simply slash the payroll, starting with older, better paid employees. Obviously I'm not advocating for that, since I've worked in all sectors. I think everyone should have the benefits of the best public employee programs.
I think your experience with young adults is pretty rosy, but I'm perhaps less frustrated with them than Hart is. Back in the much maligned 60s, no one cared about designer anything and possessions were basically minimal and utilitarian. There really has been a sea change in the value people put on clothes and cars and stuff. Isn't that what you were saying earlier?
Credit cards and TV have pushed people into totally unrealistic expectations. It's a shame. No wonder people's debt has zoomed into the stratosphere. I don't exactly blame them, but I am fearful for them. Our credit cards are paid off every month, but I remember my mother carefully eking out regular payments to the grocer and druggist and Mr. Knepp's department store. We couldn't have made it without charge accounts (no such thing as the siren song of plastic), but the options in an ordinary town were pretty limited. Now the whole country is a giant shopping mall and kids are lured into their first credit cards before they're 18.
It's late and i might not be at my smartest. Probably i'm misunderstanding what both of you have said. I do want to agree with hart ( or what I think she said). Slipping from our spot as the richest and greediest nation in the world might not be so bad. In the beginning we certainly never foresaw overtaking England and all of Europe. We just wanted to be solid, strong, able to offer our citizens a good life. Kind of like Canada. I wouldn't mind that.
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Post by doctork on Feb 19, 2010 9:14:53 GMT -5
I think we agree gk, I'm just pointing out how huge the real costs of healthcare and health insurance actually are. Since most people pay only a fraction of their costs, there is little realization of how much we actually spend. Canada - spends about half what we do and gets better results. Most of the complaints about long queues and people dying or coming to the US instead are rare instances, not everyday occurrences. There are some waits for elective surgery - but even poor people get it if it is needed, unlike the US. I do think things are harder medically in the eastern Canadian provinces than say in BC, Alberta, and probably Saskatchewan, as the eastern provinces have less money (no oil/gas, no Hong Kong Chinese money).
And I agree that we have an overemphasis on 'stuff," but I think back in the 60's it was fashionable to be "anti-stuff" and young people do what is fashionable. And they also rebel against whatever their parents do - and 50's parents were into getting the house in the suburbs, the one and then ultimately 2 cars, and the "$10,000 a year man" type job. Doesn't that seem so quaint now?
Forward to the 70's when inflation & interest rates were so high credit cards were a bargain (but it now on credit because it's cheaper than waiting to pay cash at inflated prices) and then 80's when greed was good. That got totally out of control and resulted in the housing and credit bubbles.
I don't think every young person is a saint, but I don't believe they are all terrible either. It's really not fair to blast an entire generation of 4 million people at each age - if you are going to subsume 18 - 30 years olds, that is 52 million people (3 of whom are my kids and many more are there friends that I know). I can't say that all 52 million are lazy overindulged weaklings. IME the dedicated hard workers are in the big majority, despite a segment of ne'er-do-wells.
"In the beginning" as you describe, we had good intentions and we weren't ruled by corporations, now we are. I am waiting with increasing dismay for when We The People say "enough!"
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Post by gailkate on Feb 19, 2010 11:23:47 GMT -5
Yup, we agree. And one's own experience makes a huge difference in perceptions - I don't have kids of any age, but you have very well-brought up kids whose friends are just a subset of the total. No it isn't right to paint everyone with the same brush, but you just did a pretty good job of generalizing about several decades.
I differ about the 60s. It wasn't just a fashion. It was revulsion at the very mega-complexes you deplore now. I think the influences you cite were definitely there (50s complacence and quaint suburban dream) but they led to a real values shift. But then more things happened to stifle those values. Corporatocracy won, and the secret 60s philosophers had to button down some of their values.
There are sociological trends that always stem from what's gone before, don't you think? Analyzing the 70s is fascinating and I can't begin to explain the cultural shifts. Even the 50s are not so easy to encapsulate. I don't blame the young couples who bought into the car and TV and Frigidaire - after the horrors of WWII, when close to half a million soldiers died, those who came home wanted to settle into the "good life." At its worst, it was totally self-centered, narrow and conformist. But hell, "I Love Lucy" was funny and absolutely painless.
I really thought after the implosion last October that people would say "Enough" but that doesn't seem to be what's happening. They're blaming government and other people's weakness, turning a blind eye to what really happened and what could still happen. We're on the edge.
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Post by hartlikeawheel on Feb 19, 2010 14:44:06 GMT -5
Well, some clarification. I don't see our youngest as "shiftless" and I do understand the truth in that old stereotype that every generation thinks the one coming after them are misguided. So I'm trying to find a way to express my concern about the set of values that I see prominent among our young. I do note that we have a great deal depending on how our young manage to perceive their world and take personal responsibility for its care. And that population is laboring under stresses unimagined half a century ago. I am not so much frustrated with the young. That would imply that I thought I had control over them. Heh. It would be more accurate to say that I have no small concern for them. As far as whether they are all noble helpers or all shiftless slackers I guess we know the truth lies in the balance. Our predominant perspective will be taken from the population with which we are the most familiar. I do know that for every kid out there volunteering there is also one sitting in the parental basement playing video games. And, if you are up on the latest Doc, (which I suspect you are, ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) ) you know that they are faltering in their social skills and their learning process is being affected by their constant interaction with machines. Our young males seem to be more affected than the young women. Actually there are a multitude of environmental factors which are damaging our children beyond our control. Whole 'nuther subject. My focus is on the broken because I believe there is an ever growing number of them and my voice of what sounds like doom and gloom to some is my fear that it is too easy for us to look away from our most frightening problems. I am convinced that our missing piece has a spiritual component -not talkin' church here, but that can be a part of the healing. I think it's a matter of recognizing the dignity of all humans, and appreciation for the land, a desire for harmony in our interactions, a respect for natural law and the time-tested values of groups of people who have managed constructive and relatively peaceful lives. There are aspects of this current culture which work strongly against those practical and healthy principles. So, in the here and now, I find myself wondering how much the prevailing politicalization (is that a word?) of nearly everything and the divisiveness which surrounds that doesn't infect us all to some extent. I'd like my voice not to be heard as Teabagger or Hippy or any of those labels that automatically come to mind when one is thinking in the political mode. (Or Old Fart, either. *Snicker*) Just trying to find my way through the confusion here and the model which has worked best for me to comprehend it all without the party line getting in my way is the filter of what's healthy for us all. When I keep it focussed there, the problems and the solutions make better sense for me.
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Post by hartlikeawheel on Feb 19, 2010 14:50:32 GMT -5
Yup, we agree. And one's own experience makes a huge difference in perceptions - I don't have kids of any age, but you have very well-brought up kids whose friends are just a subset of the total. No it isn't right to paint everyone with the same brush, but you just did a pretty good job of generalizing about several decades. I differ about the 60s. It wasn't just a fashion. It was revulsion at the very mega-complexes you deplore now. I think the influences you cite were definitely there (50s complacence and quaint suburban dream) but they led to a real values shift. But then more things happened to stifle those values. Corporatocracy won, and the secret 60s philosophers had to button down some of their values. There are sociological trends that always stem from what's gone before, don't you think? Analyzing the 70s is fascinating and I can't begin to explain the cultural shifts. Even the 50s are not so easy to encapsulate. I don't blame the young couples who bought into the car and TV and Frigidaire - after the horrors of WWII, when close to half a million soldiers died, those who came home wanted to settle into the "good life." At its worst, it was totally self-centered, narrow and conformist. But hell, "I Love Lucy" was funny and absolutely painless. gk, gotta say this is a beautiful piece of writing and a generous observation of our mutual pasts.
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Post by doctork on Feb 19, 2010 15:17:10 GMT -5
I wouldn't say I am up on everything, not by a long shot. However, I talk to my patients, not only about their current illness/concern, but also at least a minute or two (or longer if we have the time) about their lives in general. So that is how I get a lot of my information about who is doing what. All ages, all walks of life.
I try to note when I am making generalizations form "outside" (media), and when I am stating my own somewhat generalized impressions based on the 50 - 100 people (aka "patients") I talk to each week in the office.
You know what? Hardly any one individual fits the generalization, and almost all of them are likable and interesting. And BTW most of the youthful volunteers also play video games.
If I were to make a generalization (and this is one), I'd say I saw many more people chasing after that eternal brass ring (or maybe they hoped it was gold) in western Washington, and that in White Sulphur Springs, WV they were more down to earth, realistic and less prone to be overly fascinated with things. Exception being trucks, hunting & fishing equipment and the like - which they actually used, it was not something they bought to look good. They dressed, cooked and ate what they hunted. Among the Navajo - ever so much more so on the close to the earth lifestyle.
And for non-generalization, yes my kids are overall good kids, and so were their friends in high school. But that is not necessarily a protection. Amber's best friend from HS, once another "good kid" just like ours, is right now in the King County jail on charges of prostitution and shoplifting/selling items to support her life of addiction, which life she is living. It was bad already and resistant to intervention of all sorts, but spiraled totally out of control a few weeks ago when her boyfriend died of a drug overdose. He was a nice young man too, that we saw often in our home - both of them really. We are hoping she gets sent to prison for a sufficient term to get treatment, be rehabbed and stay removed from "the scene of the crime" long enough that she can't easily return to it as soon as she is out. Being from a middle class/affluent family, a beautiful white girl, maybe when she gets out someone we all know can take a chance and give her a job. If she is released from jail soon with a slap on her wrist, she will return to the life, and she will die.
I see some broken people for sure. I don't know that there are more than "before," except for the financial crisis and joblessness which are currently at epic proportions.
And for the things we complained about in the 1960's as excessively mega complexes? Those were microscopic compared to what we have now. Eisenhower gave the warning in the 1950's, we protested against it in the 1960's and "won" - essentially the Boomer generation and some other factors) forced an end to the Viet Nam War, though it took a while through all the crimes of the Nixon administration. But Watergate et al seems so piddly now that we have Wall Street and other corporate entities buying Congress and the Supreme Court at will, and financially raping the 300 million of us ordinary citizens/taxpayers to pay for their shenanigans. And then they get bonuses for doing a good job!
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Post by hartlikeawheel on Feb 19, 2010 15:40:53 GMT -5
I think your story of addiction, premature death and prostitution are much more common today,k. I scarcely know anyone who doesn't have a similar story. Yes, and in the "good" families. These stories were unusual around here fifty years ago.
I do recall a young man, 17, who died of cirrhosis in the Seventies and a nine-year-old heroin addict. But today those stories are less remarkable.
Center for Disease Control observed the poisoning (overdose) rate doubling in ten years in the ninties. And it's still climbing. Those figures, of course, are subjective based on reporting. When I read the obituaries I often see young deaths which I could say are attributable to drugs, having known the family situation, but reported as some sort of medical complication. So many of the causes are hidden to the public.
It's interesting to me that the CDC doesn't attribute the deaths to overdose but rather uses the term "poisoning." What's your take on the choice of wording? Should there be two separate categories?
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Post by doctork on Feb 19, 2010 19:08:26 GMT -5
I know that in Whatcom County, the drug overdose rate has been stable "for a while" but the percentage of OD's due to prescription drugs as opposed to illegal drugs has skyrocketed. The usage of prescription opiates as pain treatment has greatly increased in the past 10 years; during/from the nineties, I dunno. Though your cited 17 year-old case may have died of alcoholic cirrhosis of the liver, at that age other diseases are more common causes of death from cirrhosis. It usually takes at least 10 - 15 years of heavy drinking (the full-time kind that does not permit school or work) to cause end-stage liver disease. Acute alcohol poisoning - yes, high school and college kids die of that fairly regularly, and did so 30 40 years ago when I was in HS and college. I suspect those numbers have increased on college campuses recently as colleges no longer have an "in loco parentis" role, and excess drinking is widespread and regarded as entertainment. I never believed that hooey about "not in good families."
Medical science shows that pain is greatly under treated in general, and opiates are effective in treating pain. Despite the DEA desire to have 100% appropriate pain treatment, with 0% diversion, that will not/cannot happen. People will obtain prescription opiates through diversion with related pros (standard doses, not contaminated) and cons (they are dangerous when used improperly). Heroin OD's used to be more common, and related to obtaining an unsuspected "pure form" of the drug leading to inadvertent OD.
I don't know if the rate of prostitution and drug abuse has increased in small towns, or if it used to be that people pursuing such activities migrated to the cities "back in the day," while now they do not get run out of town. Haven't seen any data, or don't recall it. I do know that before heroin (& cocaine, et al) was illegal, usage was common but not found objectionable, as it was not illegal. "Gay Nineties" and "Roaring Twenties" and all. Coca-Cola reportedly contained real cocaine until the late 1920's or mid 1930's. Then "Mother's Little Helper" and all those middle class people on chloral hydrate and seconal, routine, no problem.
I suspect that CDC usage is based on standard medical/epidemiological reasoning, not anything political. Unless it was changed during the Bush administration under orders from the White House, which did display a propensity to place ideology ahead of science in certain circumstances. Medically, an overdose is a poisoning. Said poisoning causes a lethal complication - cardio-pulmonary arrest, perhaps with intervening conditions. State law, medical examiners and forensic pathologists may determine different terms on a death certificate. The CDC does not sign death certificate; generally doctors do. I don't know if there should be separate categories, as I am not a pathologist and don't know much about the rationale for attributing cause of death in suspect cases. I only sign the death certificate when I know the patient and attended the death, then I write in what I think caused it, based on my knowledge of the situation. We rarely get routine autopsies nowadays, so sometimes I don't know if I am correct.
Being a family doctor (maybe any doctor, but I speak only for my own specialty and maybe for other primary care practitioners) is an honored and privileged position because people trust me and tell me lots of interesting stories they might not tell others, so that I can help them get better. I speak from anecdotes, but in large enough and somewhat random quantities that I sometimes feel I observe valid trends. I see the effects of economic disaster, but not a lot of change in underlying human nature, and btw that goes for the jungle and the rural tribes as well as the big cities. There's less trappings and disguise in simpler societies.
So I can agree that there are more broken economically, but I am not so sure the younger generation has more members broken in other dimensions. Certainly we are more polarized politically, which has contributed to economic brokenness.
Recent data show boys are less skilled verbally than girls, result in more girls going to college. In an era where a college degree is required for most any job, that is a problem. But are we truly failing boys, or are we sending too many kids to college? It used to be that only a small percentage of boys went to college, the ones who would succeed, or their wealthy parents would buy their success and provide them with a job after graduation. others went into trades, farming, the family business. Girls didn't go to college (except maybe teacher or nurses schools), they (ideally) got married and had kids.
Is that what you mean about boys and machines and poor social skills? Smart geeks with machine skills are behind our tech boom, and they make top notch laparoscopic & robotic surgeons. Experienced "Old Guys" good with actual knives and needles are not so good overall with these new-fangled machines that get better results. So there are pros and cons, I'm not sure about the right balance.
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Post by hartlikeawheel on Feb 21, 2010 21:20:34 GMT -5
Thanks for that detailed and thoughtful post, k. It does raise many questions.
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Post by hartlikeawheel on Feb 24, 2010 14:56:42 GMT -5
Well. I'm still dope-slapping myself here.
Listened to a program on the MN budget this morning and a spokeswoman (didn't catch her name or agency) was saying that we have plans to winterize 16,000 homes. How were we going to afford that? Her statement? "We just won't put windows in the ones which don't need new windows."
Hey! That's sounds like a rational step in reducing waste, don't it?
Think we're on the right track now.
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Post by gailkate on Feb 24, 2010 18:51:29 GMT -5
Beats me, Hart. This is -uh- a tad shy on details. ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) Was it MPR? There might be a a transcript.
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