"We hold these truths to be self evident!"

[rogesgallery]

I get choked with emotion when I think of the intended wisdom of these words; the consideration and debate over the singular wording of the entire document.

This statement, the first line of the second paragraph of the Declaration of Independence, was the most contested of the wording of that document. John Adams was in opposition to the implication of the wording but Thomas Jefferson for some reason believed that it was accurate and he won the debate. This is documented in the letters John Adams wrote almost daily to his wife.

John Adams, the humanist, philosopher, and orator, knew that men are not born equal in either physiology or mentality. He seemed to believe that the implication that they were, in such an important document, would lead to the expectation that all men were endowed with the same drive and oppourtunity. How prophetic his instinct!

Thomas Jefferson, the buisnessman, pragmatist, and diplomat; Adams equal in intellect and dedication, must have thought the words inspirational.

The Philosopher seeks to inspire cooperation in humanity where the the Pragmatist seeks to inspire competitiveness. That is where world civilization still stands today, on that delicate yet widening line in the sand which divides the competitive from the cooperative. In my oppinion, it is the difference in those two ideologies which create the divide; in mentally competant folks, between the rich and the poor, the drunk and the sober, the well adjusted and the social outcast.

I am curious as to the rates of poverty and homelessness in your cities. What are the debates on the subject in your community governments? Have there been homeless uprisings? Have there been local laws passed to make the homless less visible? What about low income housing? What is your philosophy as to the causes of poverty and homelessness?

[gailkate]

You've thought hard and written eloquently about these questions, roges, so the rest of us may need time to respond. I will say that we are in a different position here in the cold North - no one really wants to be rolled up in a dumpster-pilfered blanket through a MN winter night.

It's true many who are alcoholic cannot abide by the rules of the shelters. You could say they're homeless by choice, but there's no choice involved, so far as I'm concerned.

Yes, the Twin Cities, particularly Mpls, have made loitering and panhandling unwelcome. I don't know exactly what new laws may have been passed, but certainly ennforcement has been stepped-up. It's a miserable, ugly conflict. I don't blame people for being fed up with being accosted by drunk and aggressive panhandlers. But those gnarly snarly panhandlers are in so much pain I can't agree with "clear the bums out."

Your article said some homeless don't want to live the buttoned-down life, and I agree that's true for some. But I think you see more of that type than we do.

[doctork]

I think the dividing line between cooperation and competitiveness has been drawn, but I wonder why it must be either-or. Should we not seek a balance of both?

We live in a capitalist society, based on competition, but on all sides there is recognition of a need for cooperation (internationally and at home) and recognition that some parts of society need support as they are unable to care for themselves.

gk is right, homelessness has different implications in Minnesota as compared to western Washington where frigid weather is uncommon. One of my classmates in my MPH program is a manager for a Seattle homeless shelter/program; he adds a lot to our class discussions, because it's an area unfamiliar to many of us.

I have read statistics documenting that over half of the homeless hae significant mental health problems. Harking back to the 70's, I recall that many of these people lived in long-term residential mental hospitals. There were plenty of scandals regarding poor conditions and seemingly "competent" individuals being forced to remain against their wishes. But were conditions really worse than living under a bridge in the winter?

"De-institutionalization" was pushed by human rights advocates as well as the budget cutters (Reagan administration) and for a while alternative housing filled the gap. Then funding for alternatives was also cut. Voila, people on the street. One percent of our poipulation is schizophrenic, but three-quarters or more cannot live or work except in a supported environment, which is available to only a small fraction.

McMansion vs cardboard lean-to. I have many more questions than answers.

[rogesgallery]

You bring up good points in relation to the geography. I actually live in Eastern WA Where the winter climate, though not a severe as MN, is considerably more severe than Seattle. Here the near homeless, that is the ones on a small social stipend which allows them to at least have an apartment, will take in some of the ones who have no place to go. Of course there are those too mentally damaged for even the tolerant poor to take in and they end up gathered in the shelters along with the mentally competant ones too proud to ask for help from individuals. Then there are the ones too proud to ask for help even from the social safety net and freeze in their blankets or are picked up half frozen in a park.

It is true that we have chosen a competitive system. The competitve have refined it into a machine that has the potential to compete us right back into the Middle Ages. It has put a price tag on everything and sells the good and bad with the same zeal. Now that the sweet cheap resources have been skimmed from the North American continent Capitalism tries to expand to the resources of other countries who's resources have once again become cheap, for the cost of desperate and inexpensive labor.

So here we sit with a growing impoverished population and costs for education inflated to the point where an increasing number of young folks can not afford it, while the jobs that made the country the economic leader in the world are outsourced.

Our Constitution may be a fluid document requiring continuous reinterpretation but Capitalism isn't. It is static and fits poorly in the political structure of a small planet. It would be better suited to an Arisocratic government on a planet the size of Jupiter. As I see it, this is this conflict which, in this current environment, in this time, is the cause of homlesness and poiverty. The Monarchy's and Theocracy's of the past had different problems and the ones that still exist are on a slow road to inevitable Democracy. If it is destined to be the sociology of the world Democracy needs to be balanced with an economic system which is not self defeating.

What are your thoughts? Joe? Your church must have social programs for the poor. What is the level and circumstance of the homeless in your area?

[Trusty]

rogesgallery said:

This statement, the first line of the second paragraph of the Declaration of Independence, was the most contested of the wording of that document. John Adams was in opposition to the implication of the wording but Thomas Jefferson for some reason believed that it was accurate and he won the debate. This is documented in the letters John Adams wrote almost daily to his wife.

John Adams, the humanist, philosopher, and orator, knew that men are not born equal in either physiology or mentality. He seemed to believe that the implication that they were, in such an important document, would lead to the expectation that all men were endowed with the same drive and opportunity. How prophetic his instinct!

Thomas Jefferson, the businessman, pragmatist, and diplomat; Adams equal in intellect and dedication, must have thought the words inspirational.

Taking a quick break here, it is my understanding that the organic document states "all men are created equal" - certainly not born equal. It IS inspirational to visualize a human being in the womb with all the potential for opportunity, health, and character in the coming life which that person will soon face.

And that person - full of hope - is born, and certainly not equal. He or she may be successful in a third-world African nation or homeless in Connecticut. Circumstances (stuff) happens - both inside and out - that determine the person's future.

That's when the created "stuff" kicks in - character seasoned with hope - the potential that inspired both Jefferson and Adams to help mold this Republic.

Back to your regular discussion.....

[joew]

rogesgallery said:

…
What are your thoughts? Joe? Your church must have social programs for the poor. What is the level and circumstance of the homeless in your area?

Off the top of my head I can't give you statics about the level of homelessness. My impression is that there are sufficient shelters and prgorams for those who are homeless so that no one has to be outdoors overneight and no family has to be without lodging. But there are thousands of people who cannot afford to rent housing and rely on governmental assistance or private charity for the roof over their heads.

It is also true that there are people living by choice with makeshift shelters where they keep their few possessions and spend their nights. It occurs to me as I write this that their situation is not very different from that of larger numbers before coming of the industrial revolution, with things like indoor plumbing, central heat, and electricity. In other words, our homeless are in a situation somewhat comparable that of third world rural populations.

The problem, of course, is that since our society is capable of providing a higher standard of living than that, we would be heartless if we wanted our fellow citizens to live in such poverty. Perhaps there are people who are mentally competent who are willing to live under bridges; but for those who are not willing to live like that and for those who are mentally incompetent, we need to provide a way of living at a level which would generally be cosidered decent.

All are created equal in respect of basic human rights.

[gailkate]

Amen.

[doctork]

Another wrinkle - homeless vets.

www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/04/AR2007030401526.html?referrer=email

This overlaps with the mental illness category, as it appears that these vets have PTSD, as well as, for some, pre-existing or newly developed psychiatric disorders. The Washington Post article notes that vets get "free care" for two years after their service (many of these problems will last much longer), and that there are fewer homeless vets now than ten years ago - "only" 194,000 today as opposed to over 250,000 ten years ago.

Many of these Guard and Reserve forces don't live near VA facilities, and would have difficulty accessing such care, free or not. No matter how I feel about the war, I don't care for the idea that those who put their lives on the line for our freedom, are now denied the most basic care they need.

[rogesgallery]

Thanks Trusty for the clarification and I might add my thanks here to James Madison for being the one sober voice and literal clarifier in the writing of the documents. I shudder to think what end result may have been had it not been for his participation. He is much underrated.

Thanks Joe. Your wisdom is well considered from behind my sometimes roguish facade of irony! The homeless are better cared for in our society than in others. I have found that they are also more demanding and manipulative also. Many of those deemed mentally deficiiant are actually competant yet are not competant or well educated enough to be competitive in the capitalist economy.

The question that I'm exploring here is why, when we cling to the words of our founding documents do we embrace a sociioeconomic structure which is opposed to the ideal of equal oppourtunity? The idea of competition is that the big dog wins not that everybody wins. And extrapolated over the thousands of years which we hope our society will prosper the current path promises an ever expanding gap between the rich and the poor.

It seems to me that the important question of an equitable system has been overridden by the competitive structure of society but maybe I am just trapped in the same desire for instant gratification.

Doc? The question of homeless vets is not exactly what the public thinks it is. Seldom is it brought up that vets sought isolation because they felt that society at large didn't understand the magnitude of the decision to put yourself in the kill zone. You and your collegues of course are an exception to this for you made the decision yourselves.

A young friend of mine who just got out of the 82nd and served in both Afghanistan and Iraq, is dealing with the same crisis of identity which discouraged many Vietnam vets. The lack of respect, both for their unique ability to make decisions and the lack of serious respect for the enormity of thier sacrifice.Not just the decision to put their life on the line but to take the life of others.

Thanks for bringing that up.

[doctork]

Your young friend's experience partially reflects the fact that only a small proportion of today's US population has military experience. In the days of the draft, almost everyone had some military contact - even if it was mainly efforts to avoid being drafted. Most members of Congress had such armed service history or contact too (although they rarely sent their kids into harm's way). I would imagine to many of today's vets, those of us who are non-military appear undisciplined and possibly quite superficial in our approach to life. To us, not understanding where they come from, vets may indeed appear weird or marginal. We might wonder, "What was wrong with them that they signed up for the US Army?" if we don't understand the level of commitment that it requires.

Health professionals deal with the other side of the life/death coin you mention. You live with the knowledge that if you make a mistake someone could die. Even if the area was tricky and there was no way to tell you were making a mistake. You will always say to yourself, what if I had done something different?

I applaud joew's point that the plight of the very poor in the US may be similar to that of many/most living in the third world. With two exceptions: we do have necessary aid resources available to most, and there remains for all the equal potential for opportunity. Harder for some than others, but still on the table as a possibility. That is why so many still want to move to the US as a "Land of Opportunity." Not that we couldn't do better for those who are already here.

[Tillie]

[Tillie]

A place for warmth and sleep

[rogesgallery]

Doc?You are right if you are referring to the ones who enlist, after some college, for the dicipline it offers and who end up medically discharged. Most of the young people who go in right out of high school are looking for the respect they didn't recieve as children, to fulfill their percetion of terror as a toy, or as a post service career decission. What they find seldom proves their expectations.

What irritated me the most in the post Vietnam era was being variously typecast by the movie industry as the Crazy Vet in movies from the Deer Hunter to Caddyshack. The pitiful attempt of China Beach to rectify this wrong was too little too late and made no mention of anyone but the grunts and meds.

There is equal oppourtunity for all until the bar is set so high that an ever increasing number can't or don't want to spend their lives just trying to crawl over it. Look at the levels of stress related desease and you will see that divide growing exponentially.

If we take just the available demographic data and graph its trend on for another 50 years the outcome isn't pretty, especially in light of the fact that most of the US productivity growth has been achieved through employment cuts.

[gailkate]

Where does the man in Tillie's picture fit? Is he a vet who dropped out, with or without PSTD? Is he a former mental patient? Is he someone who just refuses to enter the fray?

rogesgallery said:

Doc?You are right if you are referring to the ones who enlist, after some college, for the dicipline it offers and who end up medically discharged. Most of the young people who go in right out of high school are looking for the respect they didn't recieve as children, to fulfill their percetion of terror as a toy, or as a post service career decission. What they find seldom proves their expectations. Are these people the like the ".. young friend of mine who just got out of the 82nd and served in both Afghanistan and Iraq, is dealing with the same crisis of identity which discouraged many Vietnam vets. The lack of respect, both for their unique ability to make decisions and the lack of serious respect for the enormity of thier sacrifice.Not just the decision to put their life on the line but to take the life of others." My experience during VN was that very few made a decision to take the life of others. They were drafted, period.
Now we have young people volunteering who also have no real understanding of what they're getting into. I mean the kids who are romanced by a recruiter in their high school cafeteria. So I don't understand what you mean about Hollywood.

What irritated me the most in the post Vietnam era was being variously typecast by the movie industry as the Crazy Vet in movies from the Deer Hunter to Caddyshack. The pitiful attempt of China Beach to rectify this wrong was too little too late and made no mention of anyone but the grunts and meds. Can you say more about whose story was left out? Did you enlist and work your way up so you weren't part of the grunts? I don't mean to make this personal, I just don't know what you might be assuming we understand. And again, is the man in Tillie's picture the one whose story Hollywood did tell?

There is equal oppourtunity for all until the bar is set so high that an ever increasing number can't or don't want to spend their lives just trying to crawl over it. Look at the levels of stress related desease and you will see that divide growing exponentially.

If we take just the available demographic data and graph its trend on for another 50 years the outcome isn't pretty, especially in light of the fact that most of the US productivity growth has been achieved through employment cuts.

I'm not sure what demographics you're looking at. I agree that opportunity simply to live a good life, not rich but secure and comfortable, gets harder and harder for the majority of people. What does one do with an average IQ? What does one do even with an above-average IQ if the prospect of 70-hr weeks scrabbling in a competitive cauldron looks like hell on earth? The choices are extreme, borderline poverty or hanging-by-the-fingernails stress.

[rogesgallery]

Are these people the like the...

Gail?Yes. Tye was in sports in school and learned to hunt from a young age. The glory of war enticed him and he joined before he even graduated. Even while he was in Afghanistan before the Iraq invasion he wrote me and said that it wasn't about Afghanistan it was about Iraq.

As many of us did in the aftermath, he longs for the comraderie and mutual respect, but the question of the ethics and the reality of horror keeps him from re-enlisting. So he steeps in his anger and self doubt, and wakes with the smell of sweat and fear, reliving the anxiety of what he could have done to change what is long done.

[rogesgallery]

// My experience during VN was that very few made a decision to take the life of others. They were drafted//
//Can you say more about whose story was left out? Did you enlist and work your way up so you weren't part of the grunts?//

It's allright Gail. if there isn't any validation for a persons oppinion then its just an oppinion. Right?
Personally I was RA. I joined when I was 17 so I've really had no one to blame for the ignorance of my participation.

I ended up with the 1st Cav at Song Mao and then the 27th trans 8th trans group guarding convoys and recovering wrecks through some of the dustiest muddiest VC infested excuses for a red clay highway in country. Highway 19 right through the heart of the central highlands between Quinhon and Ankhe. There was the Ankhe pass and the Mang Yang and between them where the highway dipped back into a jungled valley there was our Ambush Alley, the sight of more convoy contact than any other single place in the war. People have made a big deal about grunts but nothing about the drivers and the arrty. and the engineers the MPs and the air and ground Mechanics that had to retrieve and keep all the stuff going and got shot at and defended themselves just the same.

Its the same in this war the pics and bites you see are of the grunts and like the three that died today most everyone assumes they are grunts but they were probably trans or engineers if they were on sweep.

I'm not saying that there should be a shared glory, because the reward of glory is consumed by other factors. The point I was making is that there should be a farsighted lesson in something that has such a straggling effect on so many.

[rogesgallery]

//And again, is the man in Tillie's picture the one whose story Hollywood did tell?//

First off the pic that Tillie sent is a wonderful addition to this page. I have no Idea what his situation is but if he is one of those "damaged vets" could his situation have been exacerbated by the lack of interest by the public; in the aftermath of Vietnam, in any thing but glorifying the the grunt and pitying him at a distance. Believe me there was little safety net for the angry and confused after that war, and if you did weddle yourself into the system for counseling the people that were working in the system were trained to convince you that the problem was not the responsibility of the VA. Unless of course you were a wounded grunt, many of which only spent minutes or hours in combat.

Jeez, I hope I don't sound like I hold a grudge against my comrades. I'm just trying to make the point that a lot of situations arose such as in 68 TET which even clerks had to make the same choices as the infantry. I think anyone who's been there knows that.

[gailkate]

Thank you, Roges. I thought grunts referred to rank, not necessarily infantry. In more than 40 years, I haven't understood that there might be some tension between the guys who fought and the guys who supported and were also in danger. In fact, I guess I did think of grunts as infantry in that they were the cannon fodder, while the others had higher skills - mechanics, cooks, clerks, whatever.
The famous ambush of the convoy in Iraq (when several were captured, Jessica and Shoshana making headlines) made it clear that no one has "safe" duty. I don't hear any grudge in what you're saying. You do sound frustrated by the gulf between those who've been there and those who have not. We can never comprehend.

In movies we saw the glorification of the grunts (that I didn't even see as being a bit slanted), and that's all we knew. We had little chance of hearing the reality from vets who came back. I believe that you felt there was a lack of interest, but I think it was more guilt and ignorance. Vets just didn't talk. I know women married to vets who say, "He won't talk about it." So maybe some people really didn't care, but I think a lot felt helpless and inadequate.

[rogesgallery]

Its Not a tension between the grunt and the support troops at all, we all understood. It is a frustration as to the publics perception of the glory of war. We also understand that if someone asks what we did they want to hear the gory details. They want you to paint them a picture like the "Faces of Death".

They don't want to hear the story about when there were riots in Quinhon and the prostitutes and their children and followers moved out to Cha Rang valley and set up cardboard houses but had no food, you wheeled a 5 ton down the middle of the strip and "accidentally" dumped an entire load of rations on the road and somehow didn't realize it until they had been all scooped and stashed in those shacks. Thats not a story that a young man will say to is friends "My uncle was in Vietnam and he told me..."

A lot of guys came back and joined the anti war movement only to find out that it was just an empty pool. The true message that it had been a horrible mistake for everyone, including the Vietnamese, never really got through.

Look at what they did to John Kerry. Ask a high school kid what they've been taught about Vietnam and you will get a blank stare or "Well my uncle was there". It was an empty lesson. Ladies and gentlmen I give you "Exhibit I".

Let me give you an example of PTSD. Your sitting on the couch and the kids are squabbling and it come to min a situation that happened on a particular day. It runs the scene in your head and you gfet lost in the emotion and the hate and tension. The kids fade and you go over and over the things you could have done but didn't. The tension keeps building until your in a little box with the situation and then someone touches you and you explode.

Hard to run a family like that. So the guy gives up after a couple of tries and the little box turns into a bottle and while its a bottle... the box dissapears. What the hell at least you can see out of a bottle; the box is just a trap. But the bottle doesn't set well with the boss and that boss and that boss and pretty soon he's run out of bosses so he moves to a warmer climate where he doesn't need a boss. The bottle becomes the boss and there's no one to have to please cause ya cant please the bastards anyway.

Get the picture? Happy to be Homeless.

[gailkate]

God, you write well. This is why no one knows what to say, not that they aren't interested.

[rogesgallery]

Jeez and I thought I was just preachin to the choir. Usually Women just say "You're a little too intense for me"

Thank you for the validation that my message got across.

Roges

[joew]

gailkate said:

Where does the man in Tillie's picture fit? Is he a vet who dropped out, with or without PSTD? Is he a former mental patient? Is he someone who just refuses to enter the fray? …

At one point the discussion was not exclusively about members of the armed forces and veterans. We started out talking about the homeless, and I think Tillie has given us a great illustration of who we were talking about.

[Trusty]

One of our pastors is a Viet Nam Vet who presently is going through some effects of Agent Orange (That stuff never leaves you.).

Last year, in heavy traffic, he swerved to avoid hitting an oncoming truck and ran into a concrete telephone pole. He wasn't hurt from the crash, but he did get knocked out.

The telephone pole was located right in front of Wong Lee's auto body shop, and, when he came to, all he could see were the faces of Asian men staring down over him to see if he was OK. His eyes sank back into their sockets as he went nuts in a flashback.

Later on, he told the story to the congregation, and some people laughed (After all, the situation itself was somewhat humorous.), but the laughter quickly died when they saw him glaring into their laughter with a look that could kill.

I was one of the ones who apologized profusely to him after the service; maybe I would have understood if I hadn't flunked my physical in '65. He looked at me and said, "I just thank God you will never understand."

[rogesgallery]

I can't count the times I've heard the statement, accompanied by an unknowing grin "I wish I could have gone"


The Glory of War is soon buried in guts
And awash in a sea full of tears
From the shipwreck of life
Rise a few cobbled huts
Where the wise ponder
Sunsets un clear

Roges 2007

[slb2]

roges, a while back I began a project of interviewing VN-era men about the climate during that time. I was born in 1963, so I'm too young to really have memories about 'Nam, but the subject rips my heart out time and again.

I'll check in later, my 7 year old turned up with chicken pox tonight and now is crying....

[SeattleDan]

I remember the chicken pox days, slb. The kids get over feeling bad soon. But they get bored and can't go back to school until there are no more pox.

My siblings and I all had the pox at the same time. My poor mother had thought she had had it in her youth, but, no, she caught it from us and felt miserable for about two weeks. Rough time, as we were pretty rumbunctious, and she wanted to stay in bed.

Good luck with the 7 year old, and hope it passes soon.

[slb2]

Thanks Danno. My first three had it ten years ago. The baby was seven months old and whenever I'd change his diaper, his little hands would claw wildly at his nether region. Poor baby.

The first thing my 7-y.o. said was "Why, why! now I'll have to miss school!" What can a mom say about that?

[rogesgallery]

Susan? Your not growing a third hand are you? Seems you could use one. But that belongs in the evolution thread.

Dan did you know that Jefferson and Adams both died on July 4 1826, the 50th aniversary of the signing of The Declaration of Independence.

Jeffersons (87years) last words were "This is the Fourth?"
Adams (90years)were "Jefferson survives...Independence Forever"

I'm left speechless in considering their bonds and burdens.

Now back to the pox. I had mine on the weekend, I had everything on the weekend. Didn't miss a day of school from K thru 6.

[rogesgallery]

It's hard to say how the future will play out for the Vets of Iraq Susan. The young man I mentioned above has all the symptoms of distress but he ignores the outreach attempts. I volunteered so, like I said, I never had anyone to blame but myself.

I'm sure that many of the men coming back from this will think the same. The difference is that they will be virtually invisible in comparison with the sheer numbers of vets that came back from Vietnam.

[rogesgallery]

It’s, never easy the decisions to war
Well maybe it is for some men
And then for some boys still
Attatched to their toys
Decisions not theirs
Its a trend