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Post by doctork on Oct 15, 2012 10:14:28 GMT -5
I am inspired by Jane's comment.
And when do you grow up anyway? Is that one point, or are there multiple times when you "grow up"?
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Post by doctork on Oct 15, 2012 10:15:54 GMT -5
I'll have to think about this for my answer(s).
I recall that when her mother died she said "It's kind of hard for me to think of myself as The Senior Member of the Family."
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Post by Jane on Oct 15, 2012 11:54:27 GMT -5
I don't think I will ever "grow up". I still have the same insecurities and fears that I've always had. Some people have said, "It's good to get old because I don't give a damn what anybody thinks of me." But I still do!
When I look in the mirror, I'm just amazed. When did that happen?
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Post by Jane on Oct 15, 2012 11:56:31 GMT -5
I think it kind of depends on one's situation too. My husband is VERY responsible, and I have, to my shame, not learned how to do a lot of things that most "grown-ups" do. I have no idea what's going on with my car, don't know where our money is (what little there is of it), can't use the subway on my own, have never mowed the lawn etc. So, see, it's all my husband's fault.
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Post by gailkate on Oct 15, 2012 19:00:30 GMT -5
You got married too young. I had to learn how to do lots of things (not very well), and I was delighted to turn them over to Jerry. Some stuff you really don't want to know. Of course, he doesn't know much more than I do about cars - which is .01. He thought my electric drill was a toy and the first lawnmower I bought was a piece of junk, but at least I had one that sort of worked till we could buy one better. I feel the same as you about not being strong and wise and all the things we thought our parents were, but haven't we talked about how they probably never felt grown-up either? You just go along, putting one foot in front of the other, doing your best. I have memories from very early childhood that were not the thoughts and perceptions of a child. Don't the rest of you have such memories? So I don't feel as if we change as much as our physical aging might lead us to expect. The thing about not giving a rip is that a lot of life's tests are over -like that song "I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now."
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Post by doctork on Oct 15, 2012 23:16:52 GMT -5
It is still my goal in life to have fun and adventures, which is rather child-like if you think about it. But doctoring is rather grown-up, no two ways about it.
My dad was quite handy, knew how to do lots of things and was quite a good amateur carpenter. He also built a patio in our back yard when we moved into a brand new house in Alexandria, and when I check it out on Google maps, that patio is still there! If I inherited or learned even a fraction of those abilities, then I should be able to build myself a Tiny House!
My mother was very energetic and efficient. The last time she visited us in WV when Howard was sick in the hospital, I gave her my Do List and a map of the town, and she had everything done and then some, the very first day! I could never do that, in fact if I get 3 things done on my do list on any one day, I consider it quite a day.
BTW, I have NEVER taken the DC Metro, even though it is my home town! I did manage the subway in NYC just fine, but that was when I was a kid, don't know if I would remember now. OTOH, when my son Spencer went to Boston to interview for college I gave him maybe $50 or $100 for expenses - like a taxi to and from the airport. Well, he figured out how to use the T right away (costs maybe $3) and then used the rest to have fun! Smart kid, huh?
Cars? Lawn mowers? Neither I nor Howard knows much about those. We pay other people to take care of the cars and mow the (NC) lawn, and I think it is a wise investment. I used to do a lot more stuff around the house but now I find that just working full-time wears me out, so I let Howard do it. He likes to exercise, so I am sure it is good for him to take out the trash, mess with the cat litter, go down to town hall to pay the power, water and sanitation bills. (Small town life - you pay the bills in person).
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Post by joew on Oct 16, 2012 11:11:56 GMT -5
I don't feel especially grown up, even though I do a fair number of the things grown-ups do.
IDK, maybe when we do our own laundry and cooking and/or provide the income we need, we're grown up. Maybe we grow up when we get a job; we grow up when we have a home we're at least partially responsible for in some way; we grow up when we get married; we grow up when we raise children. Hopefully two out of four ain't bad.
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Post by gailkate on Oct 16, 2012 19:29:08 GMT -5
I'm sure I've said this before but I think it's worth repeating. A friend said she knew she was grown up when she bought a vacuum cleaner. Pretty profound, right? So, Jane, with your penchant for vacuuming, you've been grown up a long time. I do think, Joe, that people without children are never as grown up as parents. We may have borne all kinds of serious responsibilities, but there's something about thinking 24/7 about one or more children who are totally dependent on you that must change a person fundamentally. Not, of course, parents who are for some reason too warped or stunted to care, but normal parents. They don't even have to be particularly good parents, but if they stick it out and do their best, they are grown up in a way you and I can't be. But I don't think you have to count being unmarried as a failure in grown-up-ness. Marriage actually makes life easier in a number of ways (not just who does what tasks). I think marriages that last give people a sense of safe harbor, even when the marriage is shaky at times or long past romance. It gives you someone to talk things over with who can't hang up on you. I was single into my 30s, and I know I had to be stronger than I've had to be since. Whew. Sorry to ramble.
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Post by BoatBabe on Oct 16, 2012 23:12:09 GMT -5
No sorrow for rambling required. I think I was grown up somewhere between 20 and 30. After that, it wasn't worth the pressure. I do what needs to be done or what I want to do, which includes survival mode, creative financing, crisis management or play time, but I'm not really working at being a grown up. It's just not one of my goals or daily requirements.
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Post by Jane on Oct 17, 2012 6:08:48 GMT -5
Re kids: I read once that a mother can never be happier than her saddest child. Unfortunately, I have found that to be true.
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Post by doctork on Oct 17, 2012 8:54:04 GMT -5
Hmm, I imagine that childless adults grow up to adults in different ways, though I do not know for sure, being a parent. There is a responsibility to being childless too (a lot of pressure from family and at work among those responsibilities) as well as being a parent. I do not think that one must have kids in order to be "complete" as a person or as a couple.
I worked so single-mindedly at becoming a parent that I am lost sight of other possibilities, since ultimately we were successful and I survived pregnancy (which was not easy for me). However, I don't think I would be "less grown up" if were not a parent. I would travel more (yes, imagine that!) and I'd have a lot more money in the bank, have a few less personal anecdotes to tell friends and patients about parenthood. However, I experience a lot of vicarious life possibilities through my patients, as they tell me lots of personal stuff when the door is closed that no body else ever hears (maybe priests?).
I certainly do not worry or work at being grown up now, and I agree with whoever said that one of the advantages of being over 40 is one doesn't care what others think. I am concerned about my professional reputation and my work as a doc, but the other stuff, well I am "good enough."
Valuable phrase that "good enough."
I love the movie "A Thousand Clowns" with Jason Robards as Murray, an adult who lives a life "somewhat to the left of whoopee!" His straight-laced brother Arthur, whom Robards disparages, gives Murray a moving soliloquoy on how he is "the best possible Arthur C. Burns."
I am OK with "the best possible doctork." Not a famous researcher, not a corporate CEO, not a medical school chair or dean. Just doctork, that'll do.
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Post by gailkate on Oct 17, 2012 20:44:55 GMT -5
I didn't intend to say people without kids are not complete. I'd be glad to list my own fine qualities with unabashed pride (but won't hold my breath waiting for you all to beg me to do so. ). I do think, though, that the direct responsibility for another life, from helpless infancy through the fragile teen years, thrusts a special kind of maturity on you. And I'm in a better position to look honestly into the experience of childlessness, compare myself to all the parents I've ever known, and truthfully admit a hole. Not a failing - people like me and Joe have loved and sacrificed and devoted ourselves to other people's happiness. We have our own unique experiences that shaped us in ways many people haven't had to cope with. Maybe my not having a child is like a hole in my resume. It's still a pretty full resume, as is Joe's. What Jane said is eloquent of all the love and fear and protectiveness that change parents and stay with them till they die.
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Post by BoatBabe on Oct 17, 2012 23:03:55 GMT -5
"Fragile teen years . . . "
Are you kidding me?!?!?!?
Who was it who said, "Grandchildren are God's reward for not killing your kids when they were teenagers?"
;D
I have several friends who are long-time married couples and they just didn't ever get around to having kids for one reason or another. They are splendid folks who have pets, interests, hobbies, travels, conversational aptitude and aren't missing a dang thing.
I feel our own stories come from our personal experiences, and it would be a darn shame if we all told the same grown up stories.
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Post by gailkate on Oct 18, 2012 0:20:07 GMT -5
Well, of course. Never mind.
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Post by doctork on Oct 18, 2012 1:38:34 GMT -5
Well, of course. Never mind. Surely I only wanted to reinforce your point that being childless does NOT mean that you are "incomplete," at least AFAIK. Being a parent I can't really speak to not having children, just observe that "wholeness" does not seem to rely on having kids. It's true that one's kids are always your children, and sometimes a heavy responsibility or heartache, even when they are grown up. When our first baby died I think my mother took it harder than I did - so Jane's comment also rings true.
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Post by BoatBabe on Oct 18, 2012 8:03:52 GMT -5
And I hope you know that I was speaking facetiously as well.
One thing I find interesting: When I look at pictures of people in my Mom's generation and also my grandparents' generation, they look like grown ups in their high school senior pictures. My generation's pictures look like little kids at the same age!
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Post by brutus on Oct 18, 2012 12:51:14 GMT -5
/quote] Surely I only wanted to reinforce your point that being childless does NOT mean that you are "incomplete," at least AFAIK. Being a parent I can't really speak to not having children, just observe that "wholeness" does not seem to rely on having kids. I guess I never missed kids. However, about 10 years ago, the thought struck me, one day, that I'll never have a little fella....... or gal, come running up and calling out: "Grandpa!!!" Felt a pretty good twinge there. It bothered me for some time. I, also, realized that I do miss having kids. For some silly reason, I'd prefer a daughter to a son. I have seen fathers and daughters parading tractors around at steam shows, which I think is wayyyyyyy cool! I found a You Tube video of a girl, named Rikki, operating a steam railroad engine with her father as fireman. She looks about 16-17, but handles her engine well. In the video, her dad is chatting with another person, aboard the engine, and she stays perfectly focused on what she's doing. Steam engines are very demanding of attention at all times, and she never faltered. I saved that video because I just enjoyed watching her. Made me want to trade places with her dad. I think I digressed a bit, but, yes, I miss having kids. ~B~
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Post by liriodendron on Oct 18, 2012 18:34:59 GMT -5
There are many days I'd give you one of mine.
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Post by doctork on Oct 18, 2012 21:04:26 GMT -5
I think that is too bad, ~B~, that you miss having kid(s).
It's one thing to decide you do not want to have a child, another thing to reconcile that you won't/can't for whatever reason. Different still to not have a child, then realize you might have wanted kids after all.
I hope that you have fun with lots of nieces and nephews; I think I recall you saying there are numerous family members in the vicinity?
But lirio has a valid point - most parents have some times when they wonder what were they thinking, isn't there a way to get rid of this kid?
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Post by brutus on Oct 18, 2012 22:18:48 GMT -5
In my case, it was not a choice as The Princess is not able to conceive. She would have loved to give me kids............... probably more than I'd love to have them. Oh well, I have "adopted" a few over the years. However, most have moved on and, probably, forgot about me. C'est L'vie! ~B~
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Post by liriodendron on Oct 19, 2012 6:59:44 GMT -5
Have you ever thought about something like the Big Brother program or becoming a Scout leader? There is more than one way to share your life with a child.
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Post by BoatBabe on Oct 19, 2012 23:40:34 GMT -5
Well, this isn't your little Rikki, ~B~, but I sure love those railroad steam engine whistles. It's a song.
Please post that video!
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Post by brutus on Oct 20, 2012 9:31:59 GMT -5
Here ya go, BB, hope this works! ~B~ PS It DID!!!!!!!!! . shock of ages!
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Post by BoatBabe on Oct 20, 2012 10:16:55 GMT -5
That is So Cool!!!! What a gal! Great Job On Posting A Video, ~B~! I'm stealing it.
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Post by BoatBabe on Oct 20, 2012 10:23:35 GMT -5
And I really have to wonder if Rikki feels that she is "grown-up?" I wonder if her Dad thinks she is? We have this deal going on at work right now. There seems to be warring factions in The Ivory Tower, making conflicting edicts on policies and procedures. We, at the branch level who are caught in the cross-hairs of implementation, say, "The grown-ups don't appear to be in charge any more."
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Post by brutus on Oct 20, 2012 13:08:50 GMT -5
Here's a shorter vid of the same gal making a practice run with her train. A ways in, you'll see her working two handles, one is the engine brakes, the other controls the train brakes. She is setting herself up for a change in grade. Times like this is when she needs to not worry about feeling grown up, rather how to handle her train. She has a short exchange with her dad as he gives her some advice. I'd let her handle my engine anytime. She is in control! That big lever beside her is the "Johnson Bar", which, if moved all the way back, would reverse the engine. You see her running in the "Company Notch", as it is set so that the steam valves that let it into the cylinders close sooner, conserving steam and, thus, fuel. When she moves the bar way ahead, the full blast is allowed for more power. You can hear the stack bark a bit more when she does this. Traction engines, such as used for farming, had a similar lever simply called the "cutoff" lever, or "reverser". The linkages that go from that lever to the cylinder valve gear is much heavier on a railroad locomotive, so this bit of a gal has to put her back into it to get it back into the "company notch". ~B~
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Post by brutus on Oct 20, 2012 13:32:58 GMT -5
Oh, BB, I can understand your frustration with those Ivory Tower types. I'm assuming that there is some issues with control. Some want to run the whole dang show, other don't want to be controlled. My supervisor has had to learn some hard lessons that way. His mindset is that if we're not doing something the way he does it, it's automatically wrong. Of course, this isn't the case. It's been a tough couple of years, but it's improving some. I've been counting the days til next July, when he retires. If I end up in charge, I'm going to have to really watch myself so I don't become him. I intend to be more of a coach than a boss. We had to, sort of laugh, the supervisor of the water distribution crew would like his guys to think for themselves, but most won't. Our boss doesn't like it when we think, but we would if allowed. Mistakes happen and, when they do, the proper thing to do is to set down and try to see where one went wrong and try not to do a repeat. Yes, BB, grownups don't always play well with others. ~B~
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Post by jspnrvr on Oct 20, 2012 19:22:53 GMT -5
Well, this isn't your little Rikki, ~B~, but I sure love those railroad steam engine whistles. It's a song. Please post that video! You're right, it's absolute music.
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Post by jspnrvr on Oct 20, 2012 19:35:52 GMT -5
Man, brutski. As the dad of a girl with a lot on the ball, I know just how that guy is feeling. It's great; only problem is I'd always start getting clouded up, IYKWIM.
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Post by brutus on Oct 20, 2012 19:40:41 GMT -5
Man, brutski. As the dad of a girl with a lot on the ball, I know just how that guy is feeling. It's great; only problem is I'd always start getting clouded up, IYKWIM. IKEWYM Think I'd be feeling something like you're describing. However, I would be feeling pretty proud of my li'l girl, handling many thousands of pounds of steam breathing steel. Somehow, a blonde ponytail and a steam engine just don't mix........... or, do they? Appears so. ~B~
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