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Post by Jane on Sept 1, 2011 15:40:31 GMT -5
CFI (Center for Inquiry), to which I belong, has posted a billboard in GR , which reads:
You don't need God--to hope, to care, to love, to live.
And, oh, my goodness, what a kerfluffle! The outrage, the umbridge, the anger!
Do you find it offensive? Immoral? Inappropriate? Outlandish?
Discuss.
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Post by joew on Sept 1, 2011 16:17:39 GMT -5
I hope the CFI isn't surprised at the kerfluffle. I think it should have been fairly predictable.
As to the merits, it's a bit startling, perhaps, to find it on a billboard, but it's something one encounters on the internet all the time. Of course, as a matter of metaphysics, if nothing exists without God, then you do need him for all those things. But as long as God sustains you in existence, you can do them even if you don't believe in him. So, in a certain sense, it is clearly true: there are lots of hopeful, caring, loving atheists and agnostics.
It's kind of "in your face," but IMO not really offensive or immoral. It invites believers to consider what their faith means to them, and what it gives beyond natural ethics.
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Post by Nomad-wino on Sept 1, 2011 17:13:41 GMT -5
You don't need God--to hope, to care, to love, to live.
In a world where people burn the Koran to intentionally piss off people, where they show up at funerals to denounce homosexuality, where they molest and rape children in the name of a cult religion, where people are fixated on Kim Kardashion and plastic surgery and having 8 children and taking it all into our living rooms on the flat screen boob tube everyday.
Well, why should anyone even raise an eyebrow at a statement like "You don't need God... " when we have all that to give us hope, to give us care, to give us love, and to live ? Heck we've got heaven on earth already!
Mike
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Post by Jane on Sept 1, 2011 18:55:52 GMT -5
CFI isn't particulary confrontational, and this billboard isn't intended to offend anyone. West Michigan is conservative, and GR has lots of religious billboards, both generic as well as ads for specific churches. Some of them are pretty "in your face."
The atheists I know are responsible, compassionate and loving. We do what we do (volunteer, raise good kids, behave ourselves, help others etc) because it is the right thing, not out of a fear of hell or a hope of heaven. And we have as much a right to our beliefs as anyone else. We're not out to convert anyone, but to enhance tolerance and acceptance.
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Post by jspnrvr on Sept 1, 2011 20:42:12 GMT -5
"You don't need God--to hope, to care, to love, to live."
Yes, I do. I tried it my way for a long time and wound up hopeless, caring for no one but myself, isolated and unlovable, living for no apparent purpose. It's better now.
All you non-believing, strong, self contained, self confident individuals, good for you. Go right ahead on. I know my limitations.
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Post by doctork on Sept 1, 2011 20:43:38 GMT -5
If you want to enhance tolerance and acceptance, I think the sign is not a particularly effective way to do so in West Michigan. IIRC you have said that the Dutch Reformed Church predominates there correct? Among that crowd, I bet it would elicit animosity; certainly that would be the case in Lynden, Washington where my kids went to the Dutch Reform private school (and where the town of 10,000 people there were 6 Dutch Reform churches, and 1200 kids in the Dutch Reform school).
But if such billboards are how religious believers communicate in Michigan, then I suppose that is the way for the CFI to go also.
I do not find the billboard offensive or immoral, but my personal opinion is that religious billboards are inappropriate, and perhaps an outlandish idea to me, as I wouldn't have thought of that. Being raised Episcopal, well "we just don't do that sort of thing."
I think there are responsible, compassionate and loving people of all faiths, and of no faith, and I'd bet they are in about the same proportion is all those groups. Very few Americans would/should dispute the right of all to have their own beliefs, and for that matter, their own statements and billboards. You know, that pesky First Amendment thing I am always blathering about.
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Post by doctork on Sept 1, 2011 20:47:18 GMT -5
"You don't need God--to hope, to care, to love, to live." Yes, I do. I tried it my way for a long time and wound up hopeless, caring for no one but myself, isolated and unlovable, living for no apparent purpose. It's better now. All you non-believing, strong, self contained, self confident individuals, good for you. Go right ahead on. I know my limitations. And if Jay or I do feel a need for God, I hope that won't offend you. It has worked well for us.
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Post by Nomad-wino on Sept 1, 2011 21:39:49 GMT -5
Religious or non-religious billboards always come off as a bit odd to me, they almost seem political in nature. Maybe religious (with or without God) mass communication is political. I'm not a big fan of bumper stickers either. I'd rather not know what the person in the car ahead of me is supporting or believing in. If he's a gun lover or a bible thumper or a democrat or republican or wants me to honk if I'm horny; I don't want to know. The other day I drove past a beauty shop that was billed as "God's Hair Salon". The Japanese don't always take signs as seriously as others (just my opinion). Mike
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Post by Jane on Sept 2, 2011 18:17:44 GMT -5
I am fine with anyone's religion (well, you know, not Warren Jeffs), but I still maintain that you can be a good person without God. 'Cause I am.
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Post by doctork on Sept 2, 2011 19:27:42 GMT -5
I am fine with anyone's religion (well, you know, not Warren Jeffs), but I still maintain that you can be a good person without God. 'Cause I am. There have been many positive comments here in awe of your good works, Jane, so I think I can safely speak for all of us that we know that you are a good person! And as I said above, there are many good people of no faith, or of any of many faiths. I'm kinda like Mike - I don't really want to know personal stuff from a billboard or a bumper sticker. The restaurants at the next exit of the highway - yeah I'd like to know. Observing the different states' license plates, I find that interesting. But if I am new in town and want to know what church to attend, or who to vote for, that's probably not my first choice for information.
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Post by gailkate on Sept 3, 2011 0:03:13 GMT -5
I'm a firm believer in advertising, so my bumper stickers would drive K and Mike nuts. The power of suggestion, the subliminal reinforcement of a name or idea, seem effective to me and worth the minor annoyance to people who've already made up their minds. Their audience is the person who's undecided or maybe hasn't even started thinking about the election or issue.
But that said, Jane, I'm not sure about the wisdom of that billboard either. I think it's an important point to make, but starting with "you don't need God" is just going to piss off the very people you're trying to persuade. From a marketing standpoint, I think it needs work. K's right that we all know what a kind and compassionate person you are, but I don't think the billboard will soften perceptions of people like you. I wish they'd asked you to edit it.
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Post by doctork on Sept 3, 2011 11:24:11 GMT -5
//starting with "you don't need God" is just going to piss off the very people you're trying to persuade. //
Good point, gk. I am not going to pay any attention to someone who doesn't even know me but presumes to tel me what I do or don't need. That privilege is reserved for my designated advisers.
But for someone who is evangelical and believes everyone needs God, the billboard will piss them off. And that is after you have put off the open minded who just don't care for being told what they need/don't need.
And no, your bumper stickers won't drive me crazy. I just think, hmm I wouldn't put all that on my car for the world to see. Plus sometimes those stickers are hard to get off, and what if you change your mind? Say a "John Edwards for President" bumper sticker?
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Post by gailkate on Sept 3, 2011 14:09:50 GMT -5
LOL I still have Kerry/Edwards t-shirts, pins and bumper stickers. I even have Edwards's frst t-shirt from when he still hoped to be the 2004 candidate. (A really dumb shirt, btw, with a list of stuff on the back that should have been drastically edited). I'm wondering if I should save them as likely to be valuable for my heirs to sell on Ebay.
Boy, he sure sounded good and sure turned out to be a lying liar, as Al Franken would say.
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Post by Jane on Sept 3, 2011 17:03:05 GMT -5
We atheists are a much-hated minority (boo-hoo). More people say they would vote for a gay person or a woman or even a Muslim before they would vote for an atheist.
That being said, it is rumored that Ike was of that persuasion. He was told, "Just pick a church and go there a few times and don't say anything."
Oh, well, we all have our crosses to bear (so to speak.....)
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Post by Jane on Sept 3, 2011 17:04:55 GMT -5
Oh, and I don't do bumper stickers. I do have a tiny window decal for CFI, but that's mostly so I can tell it's my car as I would not recognize it otherwise. As I've said before, all I know about my car is that I think it's white. Today I spent quite some time trying to get into someone else's white car.
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Post by liriodendron on Sept 3, 2011 18:34:11 GMT -5
My brother-in-law actually did get into someone else's car one time. My husband had dropped him off in front of the grocery store one evening and he ran inside to get whatever it was that they'd gone there to get. While he was inside, the car that was closest to the door pulled away and my husband moved the van into that spot. By the time my brother-in-law came out, another dark blue van had moved into the spot that my husband had vacated and my brother-in-law jumped in and started talking without looking over at the driver. Then he smelled cigarette smoke. He looked over and saw a horrified stranger looking back at him. My brother-in-law said, "Oops! Wrong car!" and jumped out. You can imagine the story that driver had to tell when he got home (and I'll betcha he now locks his car while he's idling curbside waiting for someone).
I agree with you, Jane. You can be a hopeful, loving, caring person without believing in God. However, I'd prefer not to have anyone's religious/non-religious message shared with me on a billboard. Or on a leaflet given to me on my doorstep by those pleasant Jehovah's Witnesses. Or shouted at me on the quad at the university by a proselytizing Bible thumper. I'm all for free speech. I'm just not big on evangelism.
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Post by doctork on Sept 3, 2011 20:54:28 GMT -5
At Museum of Northern AZ today Howard wanted to get into another car that was almost exactly like mine - white Ford Fusion with a license plate only one letter and one digit different. However, due to the handy little clicker thingie, I could tell which one was mine when the lights went on!
Gee Jane, I wouldn't think that atheists are "hated," despite the poll about who would vote for whom/what religion. Outside the southeast and Utah, I think most people do not care what church, if any, you go to. I'd say DDE is correct; go to some church somewhere a time or two, even if it is for the favorite nephew/niece's Xmas pageant, and you're good.
I'm trying to recall any time since Jimmy Carter that a US President has gone to church for anything other than a state funeral or wedding, or possibly a photo op.
Say, whatever happened to Lady Bird Johnson's "Beautify America" campaign, wasn't that supposed to get rid of billboards?
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Post by Jane on Sept 4, 2011 10:20:25 GMT -5
It's not uncommon here in West Michigan for the second or third question upon meeting someone in a social situation is, "Where do you go to church?"
If you say, "I don't," or "Fountain Street," (very liberal and oft controversial), your new friend moves on.....
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Post by gailkate on Sept 4, 2011 11:03:24 GMT -5
Move to Ann Arbor. ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png)
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Post by Jane on Sept 4, 2011 12:38:20 GMT -5
Depending on the outcome of the next election, I have been looking online at houses in Windsor. One pastor has suggested that all atheists should be registered. Would you wear a little yellow badge in solidarity?
Rick Perry is one scary dude. Michele Bachman is, I think, over. Mitt Romney's golden plates and magic spectacles are starting to look pretty good.
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Post by doctork on Sept 4, 2011 21:03:25 GMT -5
"Windsor" as in Windsor, Ontario? I thought it was pretty hard to move to Canada unless you are 1) very wealthy, 2) in a specialized field where there is a shortage of Canadians, or 3) you are Canadian, or married to a Canadian, or a member of a First Nation whose territory spans the US and Canada. I considered applying under provision #2, but even then there were lots of hoops to jump through.
I think the pastor's proposal is preposterous, as well as unConstitutional, so I do not support anyone being required to wear yellow badges for any reason - registered or in solidarity.
NYT, WSJ and CSM all seem unenthusiastic about Rick Perry as a candidate. I suspect he will flame out fairly quickly.
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Post by gailkate on Sept 4, 2011 23:15:42 GMT -5
Yes, everything I hear from friends who moved to Canada a very long time ago is that we are persona non grata. Even though we'd be bringing money into the country, they frown on our hoping to get national health coverage. I'm vague about whether we qualify for Soc. Sec. if we change citizenship, but what if we got away with indefinite visitors' visas? is there such a thing?
I wish I could share your confidence, K. The people who love all those scam artists don't read those papers.
Oops. We just got political. It sneaks in everywhere, doesn't it?
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Post by Jane on Sept 5, 2011 10:40:27 GMT -5
I'm waiting for the Perry flameout. I keep remembering Fred Thompson. Remember how everyone thought he was the second coming for the GOP for a few weeks there? Now he's selling senior products of some sort on TV.
My b-i-l lives in Texas and is a Republican, but even he hates Rick Perry.
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Post by BoatBabe on Sept 5, 2011 13:23:32 GMT -5
Religious or non-religious billboards always come off as a bit odd to me, they almost seem political in nature. Maybe religious (with or without God) mass communication is political. I'm not a big fan of bumper stickers either. I'd rather not know what the person in the car ahead of me is supporting or believing in. If he's a gun lover or a bible thumper or a democrat or republican or wants me to honk if I'm horny; I don't want to know. The other day I drove past a beauty shop that was billed as "God's Hair Salon". The Japanese don't always take signs as seriously as others (just my opinion). Mike I SO agree with you, Mike. I don't do bumper stickers. I don't want to know what your personal/political beliefs are: RUADV8 It seems to me that blowing up your "message" into a roadside billboard is ripe for antagonism. I also can't imagine meeting Anyone, Anytime, and asking what church they attend. ![:o](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/shocked.png)
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Post by doctork on Sept 5, 2011 15:12:34 GMT -5
//I also can't imagine meeting Anyone, Anytime, and asking what church they attend.//
It's quite common in the South, but it's usually just being friendly. I believe it would be a sign of poor home training if they made a rude remark of disapproval about your choice of church, or preference for no church.
BoatBabe, last I heard (probably from a Dutch Reformed church member in Lynden) Washington is the "most unchurched" state in the nation, so no doubt that is where you are least likely to be questioned as to your church affiliation. Of course they will want to know if you drink coffee and eat salmon, which may be key determinants of your admissibility to Washingtonian status.
To Canadians, US citizens are not PNG, but they do not want Americans coming in and taking jobs that could go to Canadians (just like the US w/r/t "illegals"), and if you haven't paid into the Canadian health and retirement systems, they do not want to have to fund those for you.
Indefinite visitors? I don't know, as I only looked into what it would take to work there, which can be done with the Canadian equivalent of a green card - with or without becoming a citizen. My thought was that if I lived there I would want to be a citizen.
My son had a four year international student visa for study at UBC, and as a legal resident of BC, he also had generous insurance though Health Canada BC for $57 per month.
The US allows dual citizenship, so you do not have to give up or "renounce" your US citizenship in order to become a Canadian citizen.
You can receive your social security check regardless of where you live, but Medicare is valid only in the US (with very few exceptions). However, if you live near the border (as in Windsor or Vancouver areas), you can easily return to the US for medical care.
Can't speak for Windsor, but housing in lower BC is quite expensive. Mortgage lending standards are very strict, and you can expect to need 20% - 30% down payment, with mortgage terms often much shorter (10 or 15 years) than the standard 30 year mortgage in the US.
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Post by doctork on Sept 5, 2011 15:19:29 GMT -5
gk, I don't think you have to rely on my confidence about Perry or the yellow armbands.
Perry would still have to win a national election (not just one in Texas), and any requirement that those of a certain religious status (atheist, Muslim) be registered and identified would still have to pass Constitutional challenge.
That might not happen quickly, as we have learned with the TSA/DHS, but I do think efforts to severely restrict our rights to freedom of speech, freedom of (no) religion, right to be free from unreasonable search and seizure and all the rest, will withstand the assaults.
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Post by gailkate on Sept 5, 2011 20:53:01 GMT -5
In 2004 the country voted again (except for the very serious questions about Ohio) for a man who invaded another country, at the cost of thousands of lives, and instituted the most draconian assaults on our freedoms in the Patriot Act and numerous executive policy changes. I have no confidence that Perry couldn't win, especially as most economists believe we are stuck in what will be a painfully slow recovery. Perry claims to be a job creator (forget all the evidence that oil and not he created those jobs, most of which are low-level). He preaches snake oil religion and an American dream that's been a myth since the end of the Vietnam War.
But I sure hope you're right! If Romney wins, he might revert to his better self. His father was governor of MI in the early 60s and was very courageous about championing civil rights. A GOOD Republican, as were many in those days.
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Post by doctork on Sept 5, 2011 23:41:04 GMT -5
People have bought the "Anything for Safety"scare tactics hook, line and sinker. Now there are beginning to be second thoughts about whether we really want all this government intrusion, especially when there is no evidence that we are any safer.
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Post by BoatBabe on Sept 17, 2011 15:11:22 GMT -5
CFI (Center for Inquiry), to which I belong, has posted a billboard in GR , which reads: You don't need God--to hope, to care, to love, to live.And, oh, my goodness, what a kerfluffle! The outrage, the umbridge, the anger! Do you find it offensive? Immoral? Inappropriate? Outlandish? Discuss. So, how has that billboard turned out for the Center for Inquiry in hindsight?
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Post by Jane on Sept 17, 2011 17:06:55 GMT -5
I went to the Easttown Street Fair today to man the CFI booth and hand out literature. Four people are praying for me. No one was unpleasant and we got lots of good comments and people signing up for our email list.
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